I have modified my markIII with a Radar trigger, VQ sear, MarkII hammer and Clark bushing. The end result is a very nice trigger pull with a little creep left. The trigger does not break immediately, it is more like a roll and then it breaks.
I would like a crisp trigger so I am ready to work on the hammer hook.
I do not have a milling machine and was wondering if bringing the hammer hook down to 16 or so thousands could be accomplished by hand with a file or stone. I would of course do this on a spare hammer in case the modification leads to an unsafe weapon.
Any comments on whether this is doable by hand, and if so, I would appreciate any advice.
Thanks
Working on the Hammer Hook
Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators
How many rounds have you put through it? If the parts are still new the pull should smooth out with a little use.
This trick has been used on 1911 autos for years and may help(it did mine).
Take the receiver off,leave the main spring assy. out, and cock the hammer, put some sort of padding on the rear of the frame where the rear end of the receiver contacts it and a rag over the top of the mag well to catch the hammer when it falls.
Stick a screwdriver on the rear of the frame and under the cocked hammer,apply pressure like you are trying to lift the hammer then pull the trigger. Don't break things, just take it easy at first and you'll be able to get a guess on how much pressure to put on the hammer.
Do that several times and check your pull. This will help mate the hammer and sear surfaces and should smooth things out a bit.
One other thing. Do this with no lube on the hammer hook or sear.
If you don't have some way to make sure you are keeping the hammer hook square you will probably wind up worse off by trying to shorten the hook but, if you have a spare hammer go ahead. Thats how everybody learns and it helps keep the spare parts people in business.
I know because I have spent a small fortune at it.
This trick has been used on 1911 autos for years and may help(it did mine).
Take the receiver off,leave the main spring assy. out, and cock the hammer, put some sort of padding on the rear of the frame where the rear end of the receiver contacts it and a rag over the top of the mag well to catch the hammer when it falls.
Stick a screwdriver on the rear of the frame and under the cocked hammer,apply pressure like you are trying to lift the hammer then pull the trigger. Don't break things, just take it easy at first and you'll be able to get a guess on how much pressure to put on the hammer.
Do that several times and check your pull. This will help mate the hammer and sear surfaces and should smooth things out a bit.
One other thing. Do this with no lube on the hammer hook or sear.
If you don't have some way to make sure you are keeping the hammer hook square you will probably wind up worse off by trying to shorten the hook but, if you have a spare hammer go ahead. Thats how everybody learns and it helps keep the spare parts people in business.
I know because I have spent a small fortune at it.
Thanks boomer.
I remember reading your experience with the sear and hammer.
I dont know if you remember, but I had a MarkIII go auto with a brand new VQ sear.
Nevertheless I would like to try the hammer modification even tho it is just to keep the parts people in business.javascript:emoticon('
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As I recall, you used a stone. Did you grind it down free-hand or did you make a jig?
I remember reading your experience with the sear and hammer.
I dont know if you remember, but I had a MarkIII go auto with a brand new VQ sear.
Nevertheless I would like to try the hammer modification even tho it is just to keep the parts people in business.javascript:emoticon('
')As I recall, you used a stone. Did you grind it down free-hand or did you make a jig?
You will probably find that your source of soft trigger breaks come from the pins and bushing. If you remove your receiver grab the hammer and try wiggling it side-to-side. If your hammer can wiggle on the pin then here is a source of slop. Now multiply that for the sear and the hammer bushing and the problem is revealed. For most people this is minor enough to not bother but others want a crisper feel. Clark sells a set of oversized pins and a bushing for around $25. These parts will require some hand lapping to achieve a tight fit. I don't advocate free-handing the hammer hook. If you don't own a Power Custom stoning jig or a mill then it's best to leave the hooks alone. To get a crisper let off a good break-away angle on the sear face will help - again do not attempt without a professional sear fixture.
If you do any trigger and sear work be sure to only load 2 rounds in a magazine until you're sure that the gun will not fire automatically.
R,
Bullseye
If you do any trigger and sear work be sure to only load 2 rounds in a magazine until you're sure that the gun will not fire automatically.
R,
Bullseye
jambiex,
I didn't try to grind the hook down, I just polished the area from the edge of the hook up around the curve of the hammer and made sure the hammer was square with the sear.
I was only doing that to allow me to set the overtravel screw as close to sear release as possible without the hammer rubbing the sear at release.
As to stones, if you are going to polish with them you need to have absolutely flat stones such as the Arkansas stones from Brownells. Just any old whetrock from the local hardware store won't hack it.
As Bullseye says, you really need a jig to do it right. A good jig will let you adjust angles slightly. But again, you will probably mess up a few sear and hammers even with a jig.
If you are not going into this with the idea of tuning several pistols you will come out way cheaper following Bullseyes advice. Good stones are expensive as are the jigs and the Clark pins with the VQ sear will most likely give you the smooth pull you are seeking.
I didn't try to grind the hook down, I just polished the area from the edge of the hook up around the curve of the hammer and made sure the hammer was square with the sear.
I was only doing that to allow me to set the overtravel screw as close to sear release as possible without the hammer rubbing the sear at release.
As to stones, if you are going to polish with them you need to have absolutely flat stones such as the Arkansas stones from Brownells. Just any old whetrock from the local hardware store won't hack it.
As Bullseye says, you really need a jig to do it right. A good jig will let you adjust angles slightly. But again, you will probably mess up a few sear and hammers even with a jig.
If you are not going into this with the idea of tuning several pistols you will come out way cheaper following Bullseyes advice. Good stones are expensive as are the jigs and the Clark pins with the VQ sear will most likely give you the smooth pull you are seeking.
Thanks guys.
I have a nice arkansas stone.
What I was thinking is to have the face of the hammer, above the stone and perpendicular to the stone. Then lightly move the hammer to and fro keeping it perpendicular all the time.
This way only the small flat area, just below the hook, will be in contact with the stone, not the curved part.
In any case, I am willling to get a new hammer to work on and take my time doing the grinding.
I do need to get a micrometer gauge. Any recomendations?
I have a nice arkansas stone.
What I was thinking is to have the face of the hammer, above the stone and perpendicular to the stone. Then lightly move the hammer to and fro keeping it perpendicular all the time.
This way only the small flat area, just below the hook, will be in contact with the stone, not the curved part.
In any case, I am willling to get a new hammer to work on and take my time doing the grinding.
I do need to get a micrometer gauge. Any recomendations?
jambiex,
Looking back to your first post I see that you want to take the hook down to 0.016. I just miked my MK111 Hunter hammer that I replaced with a MK11 hammer. It reads 0.028 so you are talking about taking off a lot of metal with just a stone.Also, I believe that Bullsey suggests a minimum of 0.018.
Now to your last post. If you are determined and have the time I suggest you put the hammer in a vise and level the square spot ABOVE the hook as best you can then try to keep the stones flat on that spot.
A small trysquare would help keep the flat square with the sides of the hammer.
Give it a try. Hammers are not all that expensive and you just might get it right the first time.
But, follow Bullseyes's advice on only loading two rounds in case you go too far with the stone and go full auto.
Looking back to your first post I see that you want to take the hook down to 0.016. I just miked my MK111 Hunter hammer that I replaced with a MK11 hammer. It reads 0.028 so you are talking about taking off a lot of metal with just a stone.Also, I believe that Bullsey suggests a minimum of 0.018.
Now to your last post. If you are determined and have the time I suggest you put the hammer in a vise and level the square spot ABOVE the hook as best you can then try to keep the stones flat on that spot.
A small trysquare would help keep the flat square with the sides of the hammer.
Give it a try. Hammers are not all that expensive and you just might get it right the first time.
But, follow Bullseyes's advice on only loading two rounds in case you go too far with the stone and go full auto.
Thanks Bullseye and boomer.
I well aware that grindig the hammer without precission equipment may result in an unstable and unpredictable weapon.
However, I think it is still possible to grind the hammer appropriately with an india stone and an arkansas stone by hand.
I have in the distant past ground a big hunk of glass(16'' in diameter and 2' thick) into a parabola accurate to 1/8 the wavelength of light. No mechanical device can achieve this level of precission.
I say this, not to make light of the potential dangers involved in modifying a weapon, but to simply state that a human hand, and a human brain can achieve a precission orders of magnitude greater that that obtained with a mechanical device like a milling machine.
I also think that once the danger of an unstable weapon is considered, appropriate measures can be taken to mitigate the danger involved.
Common sense dictates that modification of the hammer hook should not be taken lightly in view of the potential danger.
I well aware that grindig the hammer without precission equipment may result in an unstable and unpredictable weapon.
However, I think it is still possible to grind the hammer appropriately with an india stone and an arkansas stone by hand.
I have in the distant past ground a big hunk of glass(16'' in diameter and 2' thick) into a parabola accurate to 1/8 the wavelength of light. No mechanical device can achieve this level of precission.
I say this, not to make light of the potential dangers involved in modifying a weapon, but to simply state that a human hand, and a human brain can achieve a precission orders of magnitude greater that that obtained with a mechanical device like a milling machine.
I also think that once the danger of an unstable weapon is considered, appropriate measures can be taken to mitigate the danger involved.
Common sense dictates that modification of the hammer hook should not be taken lightly in view of the potential danger.
Jambiex,
Go for it. We all had to start learning somewhere in this gun business. As long as you keep safety in mind and don't mind ruining a few parts while learning. A lot of factory castings can be improved which is the reason that VQ and other after market parts makers are in business. One of the assignments given during a good gunsmithing school is to take a block of steel and file it into a perfect one inch square using only a file. I still can't do that but I can do a lot of tweaks that I have learned to do over the years and you sound like you have the interest to learn so have at it and enjoy the feeling you'll have when you get it right.
I, and almost everyone who has ever tried to tweak a firearm has had to learn a lot by trial and error and buy replacement parts for the ones we mess up.
The upside is that if you do it yourself it will almost always satisfy you more, downside is that it may wind up costing a lot more than a good 'smith would have charged but, after you really get into it you will probably find that you do a better job for yourself on a lot of mods than a lot of 'smiths would do.
In any case just let us know how your project turns out.
Go for it. We all had to start learning somewhere in this gun business. As long as you keep safety in mind and don't mind ruining a few parts while learning. A lot of factory castings can be improved which is the reason that VQ and other after market parts makers are in business. One of the assignments given during a good gunsmithing school is to take a block of steel and file it into a perfect one inch square using only a file. I still can't do that but I can do a lot of tweaks that I have learned to do over the years and you sound like you have the interest to learn so have at it and enjoy the feeling you'll have when you get it right.
I, and almost everyone who has ever tried to tweak a firearm has had to learn a lot by trial and error and buy replacement parts for the ones we mess up.
The upside is that if you do it yourself it will almost always satisfy you more, downside is that it may wind up costing a lot more than a good 'smith would have charged but, after you really get into it you will probably find that you do a better job for yourself on a lot of mods than a lot of 'smiths would do.
In any case just let us know how your project turns out.
Thanks for the encouragement boomer.
My main purpose in modifying the hammer hook it to obtain the best possible trigger pull. I am lucky enough to be able to shoot every day. The indoor range is about 4 min away from my house, and I take advantage of this lucky coincidence. Shooting every day makes one aware of the limitations of a gun like the Mark III. It is a very acurate gun, but it is not an S&W model 41 or a Pardini or a Hammerli.
I bought a Tau air gun to practice and the trigger is, well, what can I say, dreamy. It showed me what a trigger could be. When I shoot I dont want the gun to get in the way. I dont want to feel creep or slop or anyting. It should just shoot. I dont want the gun to get in the way of my shooting. I suppose that I could get a better gun, but I dont have a better gun. I want to take a gun like the mark III and make it into a better gun. I only started shooting about 4 or 5 months ago. In that time I have become a relatively good bullseye shooter. I have a long ways to go but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I suppose I could sent my gun to Clark or get a Hammerli or S&W model 41 and have the best possible gun to shoot without fiddling with it. But, I would like to modify my Mark III with my own hands.. As you say, there is enjoyment in crafting your own weapon, and you have to start somewhere.
I think Bullseye is being very cautious when he warms of in the dangers of modifying the hammer hook, which is good: what is the point of having a dangerous weapon.
Nevertheless, I think with a modicum of common sense I could craft a better trigger than the one I have.
Fortunately I have ample common sense and will not do anything which will endager me or those around me.
I'll post my experiences about this when the new hammer arrives.
Kind regard,
jambiex
My main purpose in modifying the hammer hook it to obtain the best possible trigger pull. I am lucky enough to be able to shoot every day. The indoor range is about 4 min away from my house, and I take advantage of this lucky coincidence. Shooting every day makes one aware of the limitations of a gun like the Mark III. It is a very acurate gun, but it is not an S&W model 41 or a Pardini or a Hammerli.
I bought a Tau air gun to practice and the trigger is, well, what can I say, dreamy. It showed me what a trigger could be. When I shoot I dont want the gun to get in the way. I dont want to feel creep or slop or anyting. It should just shoot. I dont want the gun to get in the way of my shooting. I suppose that I could get a better gun, but I dont have a better gun. I want to take a gun like the mark III and make it into a better gun. I only started shooting about 4 or 5 months ago. In that time I have become a relatively good bullseye shooter. I have a long ways to go but I do see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I suppose I could sent my gun to Clark or get a Hammerli or S&W model 41 and have the best possible gun to shoot without fiddling with it. But, I would like to modify my Mark III with my own hands.. As you say, there is enjoyment in crafting your own weapon, and you have to start somewhere.
I think Bullseye is being very cautious when he warms of in the dangers of modifying the hammer hook, which is good: what is the point of having a dangerous weapon.
Nevertheless, I think with a modicum of common sense I could craft a better trigger than the one I have.
Fortunately I have ample common sense and will not do anything which will endager me or those around me.
I'll post my experiences about this when the new hammer arrives.
Kind regard,
jambiex