Need Slow Fire Advice

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08 Cayenne
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Need Slow Fire Advice

Post by 08 Cayenne » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:49 pm

I'm new to rimfire Bullseye, using a Ruger Mark II. My rapid and timed are progressing okay but my slow fire is bad. I'm grouping very well but unfortunately low left in the 6 & 7 ring. Can anyone please give advice on how to cure this? I think part of the problem is the Herritt grips are too large for my hand, the trigger is out on the end of my finger about an 1/4" in. Could this cause low left groups? I'm shooting right handed.

Thanks
Frank

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Post by Bullseye » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:00 pm

Hi Frank,

Grouping in the lower left quadrant for a right handed shooter typically is caused by jerking the trigger. In slow fire this situation naturally happens as a shooter tries to make the pistol fire as the sights are tracking in and out of the center of the target. The fact that you're grouping in this area tells me that the instantaneous pull is fairly consistent.

Slow fire is a tough stage because the shooter has lots of time to think. Active thinking is bad for the fundamentals which is why many shooters do well in the sustained fire stages and not so well in the slow fire stage. When the targets turn in the sustained stages there's little time to think in your head, you just keep on watching the sights and squeezing the trigger. But slow fire, a shooter can tend to internalize their thoughts and increase pressure to perform by trying to hit the shot at the exact instant the sights are aligned in the sweet spot on the target and this causes the jerked shot.

The amount of time a shooter has to break the shot is what makes the slow stage such a tough part of the match course to score well in. You really must focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship and tune everything else out. Concentrate on watching the sights and squeezing the trigger until the shot breaks, thereby letting it break not making it break. Everyone has a wobble zone, this is where the sights drift around the aiming black of the target as the trigger is getting ready to break.

The more you practice the more comfortable you get with your hold. Accepting that the sights are going to move is a big part of performing better. The less you actively try to make them sit still, the less stressed you are and the sights will move in a smaller circle on the target. This happens because you are more relaxed and adrenaline is not interfering with your muscle control.

Another technique is to turn the target around so the blank side is facing you. Now concentrate on hitting your shots in the center of the white face. Without the moving ball messing with your mind the shots will all center in the middle of the target as you must concentrate on the sights instead of the target. Later take that target and turn it around and you'll see you're easily putting all your shots in the aiming black area. Why does this work? Because your not actively chasing that ball around the target and trying to hit it with the perfect shot.

Hope this helps.

R,
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Post by Python » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:17 pm

Frank;

A lot of variables involved without watching you shoot...

Iron sights or red dot scope ?

I am just an Expert classed bullseye shooter, so just bear with.

First question and then we can move on.

Iron or dot ?

I use a dot sight and do not change the scope dope between long and short line.

Are your short line targets low and left also, but grouping in the ten ring ?

Low and left in my honest opinion is pushing the trigger to the left and to much pinky finger.

First I need the above questions answered.

Also, what bullets and what scope(if used) if scoped is it perfectly aligned and do you change the dope between long and short line.

There is a method to my madness when it comes to accuracy, it all lies in the basic fundamentals.(you got to start somewhere).

Clarence Perkins
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EIC Service Pistol = 30 pts.(need a hard leg)
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Post by Hardball » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:37 pm

Perhaps you should not worry where your shots go. Better to concern over how they went. In other words watch sights and call your shots at the gun. Once you recognize good shots in the sights, you adjust them as needed.
Grip changes may be in order, but look for the improvement at the sight

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Post by Python » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:57 pm

Franks concern is all shots are low left at the long line.

I need more info as stated in my previous post to figure out what is going on...

I love shooting the long line.
I find timed and rapid fire borderline boring.

That is because I like long shot precision.

I have countless 98's at the long line, but never a clean target.

Just me...

Clarence
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EIC Service Pistol = 30 pts.(need a hard leg)
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Post by stork » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:30 am

Frank,
Read Bullseye's post several times and bear in mind we are all trying to diagnose the issue from a long way away.

Because of the time allowed for slow fire, it has also been my worst stage 85-92. Timed fire and rapid fire work best as long as I shoot them both as rapid fire 98-100. I have dozens of TF & RF 100s shot in matches but no SF 100's.

What trigger do you have on your pistol (roll vs crisp vs factory)? By far the best shooting I ever did was 6-8 years ago when I had a new trigger installed that had a long roll trigger that was smooth as silk. You started the trigger pull and never knew when the shot was going to break. I was shooting 292-296's in NMC's during that time. I unconsciously was doing what Brian Zins promotes as a SMOOTH UNINTERRUPTED MOVEMENT OF THE TRIGGER TO THE REAR.

I was shooting so well that of course I had to change it. I fell in love with a couple of Hi Standard Citations that had beautiful crisp triggers, played around with them off & on and had my Ruger trigger changed to a crisp trigger. Then I legged out, stopped practicing 5-7 times a week and went back to drinking a lot of COFFEE. (I love Coffee)

Assuming your pistol is sighted in. If your shot impact is low and left, your mind sees the proper sight picture and tells you SHOOT- SHOOT QUICKLY-NOW and sends that signal to your trigger finger that proceeds to do just that. However due to you not being a Ransom Rest, you have a natural area of movement and float around. More on some days, less on others. If your trigger finger placement is not perfect and its movement is not straight back, the natural tendency (for a RH shooter) moves the muzzle low and left.

When I'm shooting SF I spend the first minute or so dry firing while closely watching my dot. If it doesn't move when the shot breaks, I know my finger is placed correctly. If left or right I adjust my finger in or out further. Down, I shift it up. My SF shots aren't clustered in one area, they scatter all over the place but that is due to the fact I drink too much coffee and my tremors are dancing the dot over the entire black and half the white on some days. If I ever decide to discipline myself to make High Master, I know I have the equipment, ability and knowledge but it is going to require giving up my caffeine. I'm not going there, not yet. (I love my coffee.)

ps: After posting and rereading your post I noticed your statement about your trigger finger placement.

Another thing I have started doing, after I read of others doing it. Establish your grip, beginning with your trigger finger. (Make sure your slide is locked back).
1. Put your trigger finger completely to the first joint (just the joint should touch the outside of the edge of the trigger). If you are pressing with the pad of the finger you have to push through the flesh & muscle to get the bone to the trigger. If you put the finger in to the joint you have just the flesh to compress before starting the trigger movement.
2. Pull the trigger all the way to the rear to set your finger in place. (remember to make sure your bolt is locked back.)
3. then wrap the rest of your hand tightly around the back of the pistol and lock it in place.
4. Let the bolt go forward, on an empty chamber, and practice dry firing while watching your dot movement.
5. Insert your magazine and commence firing when satisfied with your finger placement.
6. DON'T THINK, SHOOT. Your area of movement for the day is your area of movement. You can't change that or reduce it by tightening up muscles to try and control it. Establish your stance to make sure the center of your area of movement closely coincides with the center of the target. Then just move the trigger.

FWIW
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” – George Washington

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Post by 08 Cayenne » Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:20 pm

Thanks for all the great advice, really good stuff. I need time to study it. I worked a double today, 03:00 to 19:00 and have to be back in tonight at 03:00 for another 12 so I need to get some sleep.

To comment on some of the advice.
I shoot with a Match Dot, sandbagged it hits very well. I use the 4 MOA dot on a brightness of 8 on both the 75 & 150 ft lines. No dope change between the 2 lines.

I installed a Volquartsen trigger kit, think its 2.5 pounds.

I have Herritt National Target grips.

All 3 distances,( 50 ft indoors, 75 feet on a B16 and 150 ft on the B6) my slow fire is low left. My rapid & timed are not low left, I'm usually centered around the X. I've been shooting in the low 170's out of 200 on the short line, I'm happy with that after only shooting 4 matches.

I try to hold the pistol as loose as possible, it helps me hold it steady, I try to apply most of the grip pressure with my middle finger. When I practice I take my pinky clear off the grip.

I can't wait to get to the range to try out some of the advise. I really like the turning the target over practice. Should be interesting to see what I do.

Thanks Again
Frank

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Post by Python » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:47 am

On my gunbox lid is a quotation that reads...

"ADMIRE the SIGHTS"
-John S. Zurek-

This simple statement has caused my long line scores to go upward and also my short line, but not what it is at the long line.

HOLD that pistol consistantly, with finger pressure on the trigger.
FOCUS only on the front sight/ red dot.
FORGET the wobble.

Focus on the front sight / dot and slowly press the trigger straight back until it goes bang.

You cannot focus on two things at the same time, not possible.(I may get some crap here on that statement).

Focus on the sight alignment on the target and do not think about trigger pressure.

If you think about trigger pressure, then you are not focusing on sight alignment.

User must at the long line look at sight alignment and the sub conscious presses the trigger until it goes off.

Kind of hard to describe, but it works.

The human brain cannot walk and chew bubble gum at the same time :lol:
Master indoor and out
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EIC Service Pistol = 30 pts.(need a hard leg)
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Post by stork » Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:22 am

GOOD THREAD!!!!
I keep 3 short notes on my box.

ADJUST THE SIGHTS..I added this one as #1 after loaning my ball gun to a non distinguished shooter to shoot a leg match and then forgetting to rezero the sights for myself.

WATCH THE SIGHT...just a reminder to keep my focus where it belongs.

MOVE THE TRIGGER...my note to myself to keep the trigger in motion and trust to my area of movement of the day.

Your main focus will change as certain aspects of shooting become more ingrained and automatic. At different times it will be breathing, stance, grip, trigger finger, trigger movement, focus on the front sight/dot, focus on the target.

Yes, I said FOCUS ON THE TARGET. It doesn't work with open sights. But with a dot it definitely works. (10 time National Champion Brian Zins for one).

Mr Zins posted the story of his first 100 slow fire at 50 yards (forgive me if all the details aren't precise, I'm recalling this from memory). He was shooting a dot of course (as I said this WILL NOT work with open sights). I believe it was his Sargent that told him to try focusing on the target instead of the dot and he shot his first 100. After practice they got together and his coach asked him to share with the others what he did different, and then got upset when he told him. He settled down when Zins told him it was his Sargent that told him to try it. Now, Zins also said NOT to try this unless you had a very good area of hold (9-10 ring).

FWIW
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” – George Washington

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Post by Bullseye » Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:24 pm

Shooting is like a martial art, you concentrate on making the technique perfect not the results. The holes in the target will demonstrate how well you carried out your technique.

Zins learned that day by concentrating on the target he wasn't fighting to hold the dot steady, and this made the dot steady-up because he was no longer actively fighting it. I had my dot "epiphany" when I was trying like mad to steady-up the dot and it seemed the harder I tried the more it moved. Finally in frustration I said to myself, "The heck with it!" The dot suddenly froze on the target and stayed put. Bing! The light went off, ever since I don't worry about that dot just concentrate on the fundamentals and watching where the dot tracks on the follow-through. If I see it dip or swirl, I know I induced a bad shot. Your mind will freeze-frame the instant that dot jumps and your shot should be right in the target face where that dot was located just prior to the movement. That's calling your shot. If it's not there then you did something to disturb the aiming and firing process.

R,
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