9-mm the round of choice?

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9-mm the round of choice?

Postby greener » Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:45 am

The FBI thinks so. One of the reasons cited is less wear on the gun than a .40. How many rounds of .40 does it take to wear out a pistol and how many police shoot that much?

The other arguments are interesting: higher ammo capacity, less recoil = better accuracy, terminal ballistics with new rounds aren't that different than higher calibers.

http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/

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Postby Bullseye » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:09 am

Funny how things travel in a cyclic rate, seems like it wasn't that many years ago when the FBI concluded the 9mm was ineffective against the Miami shooters in their infamous shootout. That was the whole genesis for them switching to the 10mm/40cal as their primary duty sidearm.

Police officers in L.A. found out that it is also easily defeated by body armor as was evidenced in the Northridge bank shootout where two fully armored men held the police at bay for nearly an hour. Their 9mm rounds had no effect on these men as they rampaged through the downtown streets. Ultimately they had to run to nearby firearms shops in order to acquire enough high powered rifles to pin the shooters down until specialized units could arrive and end the threat.

I wonder how long until it all flops again to another caliber?

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Postby charlesb » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:06 pm

Same deal with the military going over to 45 after 38's did not have enough grunt during the Boxer rebellion in China, then flip-flopped back to the 9mm to make the Euros happy, and are now looking again for something with more grunt.

I'm surprised that the high velocity 22's like the 5.7x28 haven't been adopted on any significant scale yet.

38's and 9mm take less training, more effective rounds take more training. - That's what it all boils down to, and why we keep seeing various agencies going back 'n forth.

It's like the old WWII fighter aircraft designers... You could have speed and agility - or armor and robustness. But you you are not going to get both at the same time.

In many ways, the .357 magnum revolver was a superior police gun because of the ease in changing its power level with a speed-loader.

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Postby Hakaman » Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:17 pm

For normal police duty, I imagine today's 9mm ammo would do the job, but I
would think the police would want to have a high powered rifle available for the
more serious tasks? Is it legal anymore for police to use deadly force when the
situation warrants? :wink:

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Postby greener » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:42 am

You are probably right that the 9 mm is suitable for normal duty. But, how do you know if the next guy is a normal duty guy?

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Postby Hakaman » Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:26 am

I guess part of me was being a little sarcastic in my above reply, because policemen these days must live in fear of doing their jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if all the police forces were limited to batons and tasers in the near future. I'm getting sick of all this liberal bs, oversensitivity, double standards, and rebellion against police. I'd hate to be a policeman nowadays for fear of making national news for defending myself.

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Postby ruger22 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:11 pm

Article was "Posted by Brandon on 10/07/2014 ". I think it is all his opinion and conjecture; the format and grammar don't strike me as any part of a FBI document. I've never heard that the FBI dropped the 40 in favor of the nine either, but maybe so. I think the 9mm is worse than the .38 Special was as a duty round.

I have a Gun Digest book of "Classic Combat Handguns" that has an article on the .38 Special from 1970. Mostly a debate on whether the .38 was "dead" as a LEO round. This was back when hollowpoints were just LRNs with a dimple, and new configurations were just starting to be tried. The .38 problem in the Phillipines was the .38 Long Colt, lighter and slower than the .38 Special, which S&W dreamed up just after the Phillipine conflict.

The article's conclusion was that the .38 Special would be a good LEO round, with better expanding bullets. The article cites several instances of .38 Special over-penetration felling bystanders. And perps still returning fire after taking several .38s in the torso.

For my own opinion, the 9mm is too light and too fast for LEO work. A heavy, slow round like the .45ACP is better. Or the .44 Special. If I were an LEO, I'd be far more comfortable with a revolver instead of a pistol, loaded with rounds a pistol probably wouldn't feed.
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Postby Hakaman » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:22 pm

I have a Ruger 'Bird's Head' 45LC that would do the job, but only carrys 6 rounds. and is sa. 250 grains sure can do some damage.
It is the middle gun in my avatar, or,
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Postby blue68f100 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:28 pm

I use to carry a 9mm and always thought it was border line. The reason I moved up to a 45acp. It's not a hot rod round but it throws almost twice the weight of the 9mm bullet. With a lot of knock down power.

Hakaman, The 45LC was all that was used for decades. A very proven round.
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Postby Hakaman » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:49 pm

blue68f100 wrote:I use to carry a 9mm and always thought it was border line. The reason I moved up to a 45acp. It's not a hot rod round but it throws almost twice the weight of the 9mm bullet. With a lot of knock down power.

Hakaman, The 45LC was all that was used for decades. A very proven round.
I think that is a smart move on you part. Without going to the charts, I think 45acp has about half the pressure
buildup upon firing then does the 9mm, but, like you say, puts out twice the weight in lead.
Ok, I went to the charts.
Approx. values:
45acp: 15,300 CUP with 4.7g of hp38
9mm: 30,200 CUP with 4.6g of hp38
I have had thoughts of trading my PM-9 for a small 45acp, but it's such a pita to do.
Good luck, be safe,
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Postby charlesb » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:02 pm

Everybody's going to laugh, but lately I've seriously been considering a SAA in 32-30 for a carry gun. Probably with a 5 1/2" barrel.

The open carry law here in Texas is currently being voted on. You still have to take the course and have a CC license, but with the new law there is no penalty if somebody sees your gun, or if you decide to just wear a holster on your belt or shoulder, where it's plainly visible.

Most will probably still carry concealed, but it will be nice that nobody can become hysterical and cause trouble for you if they glimpse your firearm while you are going for your wallet, etc..

They can still become hysterical of course, but that's as far as it will go.

I'm thinking about a Single Action Army in a quality shoulder holster.

The one that I'm looking at right now is the Cimarron model P.

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cartridge-revolvers/model-p-sa/model-p-2.html

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Postby bgreenea3 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:06 pm

As a current copper my thoughts are the .40 is about perfect.... yes the new 9mm hollow points are wicked good when they expand as designed. 45 acp is also a great stopper, big heavy boolits are wonderful like that. Capacity and velocity like a 9 and bigger boolits like a 45.


That being said Mich state poluce are switching from Sig 226 40 to glock 17 9mms... they cite ballistics "almost like a 40", a little more capacity in the mag, easier to make follow up shots etc etc etc... but what it comes down to is glock made a better deal (providing lights and holsters) and ammo is cheaper to train with.

The other round designed for police use was the .41 mag.... that didn't take off too well though.
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Postby charlesb » Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:16 am

They really missed the boat by not coming out with a 41 special, at the same time that the 41 magnum was being introduced.

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Postby Hakaman » Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:30 pm

bgreenea3 wrote:As a current copper my thoughts are the .40 is about perfect.... yes the new 9mm hollow points are wicked good when they expand as designed. 45 acp is also a great stopper, big heavy boolits are wonderful like that. Capacity and velocity like a 9 and bigger boolits like a 45.


That being said Mich state poluce are switching from Sig 226 40 to glock 17 9mms... they cite ballistics "almost like a 40", a little more capacity in the mag, easier to make follow up shots etc etc etc... but what it comes down to is glock made a better deal (providing lights and holsters) and ammo is cheaper to train with.

The other round designed for police use was the .41 mag.... that didn't take off too well though.
About the only thing I have to say negative about the 40 cal is the recoil it has. I shot the pocket Glock in 40 cal and I had to set it down after about 5 rounds because it hurt too much. Although my Kahr may be slightly larger? I have never had to consider stopping a practice session with it(pm9).

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Postby Bullseye » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:10 pm

I agree, the G27 has a very "snappy" feel to it with even mild 40cal loads. Now I have a 40/9 conversion barrel installed in it for use with more economical practice loads in the lesser caliber.

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