How Current Events Have Changed My Habits

The place to discuss items of a general nature or items that do not fit into the other categories.

Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:23 pm

greener wrote:The "John Doe" investigations in Wisconsin by county prosecutors who don't like Walker, have included SWAT no knock raids late at night to seize computers and records. Wisconsin is purely political and is being done to intimidate Walker supporters. DOJ has done a few late-night, no knocks for records. I've read that California, New Jersey and New York(?) have used full SWAT to pick up registered firearms when one of the residents has been deemed unsuitable to possess (mental history of spouse of permit holder). There have been a couple of "wrong address" no knocks resulting in a bad end. There was one recently where the homeowner shot (and killed?) an officer on one of these.

Gibson Guitar was subject to a records search by armed, body armored FBI/DOJ types. Makes for great TV when you see the swarm of armed FBI tpes, but for records and wood samples from a guitar maker?

I see no reason for non-crisis no knock warrants and entries. There aren't many, but they seem to be increasing. Is it an intimidation attempt.


Maybe some of those folks think they need to intimidate. A few years ago we had two EPA inspectors show up at the door investigating an anonymous complaint that I was "adjusting fuel data to make me look good." They showed me their badges and very ostentatiously made sure I saw their Glocks. To investigate record keeping, they need to make sure I knew they were armed? I wasn't particularly intimidated.
I'd like to see the Probable cause and what crime was committed for the WI "john doe" warrant services... the DOJ/Police have to get that signed off by a judge. Its as much on the judges (ELECTED OFFICIAL) as
anyone else.

As for the gibson Guitar... If that was the FBI, they are an interesting group.... 'nuff said

There are plenty of reasons for a no-knock, but its actually a pretty narrow set of standards. Desruction of evidence, Apprehending armed and dangerous persons, And it has to be felony. you can't use deadly force (ie pointing guns at people) to effect a Misdemeanor arrest (unless the is significant background to justify it.

I'm not really sure why the EPA needs to be armed.... Maybe your reputation preceded you! :wink:
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:54 pm

charlesb wrote:Just a coincidence I am sure, but I read a news story this morning about a police outfit utilizing an armored vehicle and a bunch of guys in SWAT outfits - to confront a 77 year-old man who owed a fine.
Make sure you aren't getting your info from just 1 side on things like this, there is likely a Paul Harvey "Now for the rest of the story" moment. The problem is media with an agenda will push a story which sensationalizes something like this without getting all the background first. what is the 77 year old's background/history? whats the background/history on the "just owed a fine"
Here in my town, I personally witnessed over a dozen DEA agents and county deputies, wearing flak jackets and toting full-auto M16's - to confront two unarmed women operating a "vape" shop.

One of those young women wound up with the imprint of an M16 butt on her neck.
Here in Texas, it used to be "One Ranger, One Riot" - but now it's down to - "Over a dozen agents and officers with flak jackets and fully automatic weapons - Two unarmed women."
the days of one riot one ranger, ended with a dead rioter or ranger.

Just a Vape shop? the big trend in medications is to sell THC/Hashish oils from the shop. and raids or warrant service on a place like this are done after a lengthy surveillance, undercover buys, etc. Also shops such as this are known to have armed security as they are known to be robbed, because what medication dealer s going to report a robbery?
Heh

Maybe it's different where you guys work - but that doesn't mean that things are on the up and up everywhere. And it doesn't mean that there is no problem with militarized police gangs - acting exactly like gangsters and thugs tend to act.

And who is militarizing, gangsterizing our civilian peace-keepers? - The Federal government, run by a clique of secular socialists.

Just like we don't hear any recognition or condemnation of terrorist activities by "peaceful" Muslims, we also don't hear any recognition or condemnation of militarized, gangsterized police outfits by "professional" police officers.

That's not looking out for you own. That's looking the other way.

Looking out for your own requires a little tough love every once in a while, sticking your neck out and calling it like it is for good of the profession.

- But that's just me... What do I know?


plenty of tough love going around, plenty of cops fired or disciplined every day for misconduct.

All Municipal police/sheriffs are under Local control, if you don't like how they are run vote in the people who will run them the way you want. State Police are by the State legislators/Governers, support the folks who are of the same mind.

Judges authorize ALL warrants and they are all Elected.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:29 pm

The vape shop had no illegal substances, according to the DEA lab folks some months after the raid. The old man had a civil judgement against him, and no record of violence. 24 officers and an armored vehicle were used to talk the unarmed septuagenarian into going down to the bank and paying the judgement. - He, like a lot of our elders, had a messy yard.

The county prosecutor who wrote out the paperwork for the vape shop raid had formerly had a relationship with the female shop owner. She decided to move on, and soon after that he decided to move on her. His manhood, such as it was, must have been insulted I suppose. I've met the guy downtown a few times and let me tell you - He's no prize.

While she was in jail, the local magistrate would not let her bail out until she had signed a paper promising to retract her story to the local newspaper about how her sister got the M16 butt-mark on her neck.

Not what one would call constitutional... And none of the agencies or individuals involved said a word about it - not a man in the crowd - even after it came out in the press and everybody in town knew about it. The magistrate though has since stated that he will not run for re-election, a wise move after his behavior made the statewide press.

I do know the particulars of both of these cases, and you do not. I drove by the vape shop raid on my way home from the burger place nearby and saw the group of guys standing around with the M16's. - I hope they weren't too terrified by those two unarmed women.

The vape shop had been visited numerous times by local law enforcement folks associated with the county sheriffs department after the DA's failed romance, and they knew precisely what they would be facing that morning. They approached her in front of the shop that morning as she was about to open the front door. She had the keys in her hand, but they decided to go ahead and break down the door anyway. - Then they turned the security cameras to the wall and vandalized the shop.

I think vaping is dumb, but I have been in the shop to see what the deal was, there... Vape junk, incense, posters, gag gifts. - Much like a Spencers Gifts you might find in a shopping mall, but on a smaller scale. I bought a little quartz crystal on a leather thong there for my wife.

You are probably thinking of a head shop, this is a vape shop. They are not the same. Head shops have paraphernalia for sale, and those stupid bath salts that mess people up, this shop does not. - Just vape junk and novelties.

I don't like vaping because it is not being used as predicted to help people escape nicotine addiction. More often than, not, it is being used to introduce people to nicotine instead. Nicotine is the primary ingredient in some of the better pesticides, and I am a reformed smoker. - You know how reformed smokers tend to be. I guess you know that the water vapor in vapers looks like smoke because it has propylene glycol in it.

The vape shop raid was part of a national set of raids at that time by the DEA, upon president Obama's orders. The shop owner is out 100 grand in damages and legal fees associated with the raid. - But she was not convicted of any of the charges her ex-boyfriend, the county DA cooked up to get the DEA involved. Apparently he ginned up the raid on the strength of the fact that incense was sold there. Incense was the only product seized in the raid, and it all ended up passing the DEA "smell test", pardon the pun.

Attacking the messenger will not change the facts. If you feel that you must though why go right ahead, I don't mind and my feelings won't be hurt at all.

I work with some of the state law enforcement officials and the border patrol from time to time, and we have had several peace officers in my family. I know how good a good cop can be - and how sorry the other kind generally are.

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:32 pm

no attack to the messenger from me.

that Vape shop deal sounds like Shes got cause for a nice civil rights law suit. And the DA for an abuse of office charge, and if He's the assistant DA if he still has a job his boss shouldn't after election day.

there has to be more to the back story of the old man than just needing to pay a civil judgement... at least the officers on scene talked him into going to the bank rather than a use of force. I'll have to read up on that one.

I was thinking of a vape shop. a lot of the head shops around here have gotten into the vaping thing.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:00 pm

From "The Blaze" ref the 75 y/o from Wisconsin
Hoeppner admitted to the Journal Sentinel that perhaps he had been “hostile,” but added, ”The $86,000 figure is enough to shock most men. And they wanted it now, today.”
now the $86k fine is really high, for junk in the yard... but maybe him being "hostile" is part of that history and backstory....

charles I'm not attacking, playing a bit of the devils advocate. theres always more behind these stories. And a lot gets left out in the media.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:26 am

My point about the vape shop was that having over a dozen guys standing around with M16's and flak vests when they knew that they would be facing one woman (the sister was driving by, saw the activity and stopped to investigate, making it two) is clearly inappropriate.

The only reason that the local DA was relevant was that you didn't seem to think that the locals and feds knew what to expect there. - But they did, for the reasons I mentioned. The DA knew the shop owner intimately, and officers had been in and out of that shop for over a month, looking for something that they could press charges on.

Ditto with the old fellow with the messy property. Messy property is one thing - but holding up a senior citizen for 80 grand is another. Did it take 24 officers and an armored vehicle because they knew that what they were doing was deeply wrong?

I remember a time when one or two cops, plus a few city workers with a pickup truck would handle a situation like that, and there would be a fine involved but certainly not over three figures.

I don't visit the head shops, but it would not surprise me about them carrying vape junk. It's "smoking" related and I know that they often call themselves "smoke shops" as a legal fiction. Plus the stuff is addictive.

What these two stories point out is a growing tendency by police outfits to utilize overwhelming force and military equipment in situations that really do not call for it at all. When they do so it is expensive, unprofessional, and dangerous to both citizens and law enforcement officers. It actively undermines public respect for the law, and that is never a sign that things are being handled as they should be.

These days everybody has a camera, and taking a picture or video costs nothing. Anything in public is legal to record, specifically police activity. For good or ill, we all are swimming around in a fishbowl.

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:39 am

Right the additional info on the Vapor Shop changed how I looked at it... having more info does,

As for a couple of deps and public works guys going to get the stuff from the old fellow, maybe that wasn't appropriate due to past problems with the guy? I don't know. maybe 24 guys and a armoured car were appropriate. It sounded like there was quite a history with the guy.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
greener
Garrulous Maximus
Garrulous Maximus
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:16 pm

Post by greener » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:44 am

bgreenea3 wrote:

I'm not really sure why the EPA needs to be armed.... Maybe your reputation preceded you! :wink:
Maybe they heard I was a real dangerous man. :lol:

Those guys had zero sense of humor and almost as much IQ. I had a QC program that checked fuel data entry by other people for reasonableness. They were putting in totalizer readings (up to 10 digits) and fuel used was by daily subtraction. The most a plant could use was 25,000 gallons, so 43,000,000 gallons or -43,000,000 gallons was a dead give away that something was incorrect. I spent an hour explaining that when I found errors, I sent the data entry folks an email telling them to review and fix the error.

In an office 10 miles from the nearest fuel using plant. Two of them and one of me. Making sure I knew they were armed was nothing more than an attempt to intimidate me.

Post Reply