Gun Law-Arizona Shooting

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:32 pm

I believe the 32 or so round 9m glock mags were intended to be used with the SELECT-Fire Glock 18, where the extra rounds are more than likely needed on full auto fire. I think that if someone had a Kel-tec rifle in 9mm that took the glock mags it would be the cats meow in that gun just great for plinking or home defense. OR many of my co-workers have put together an "active shooter kit" or "Bug out bag" and if your go to battle gun is a glock 9mm it could be a viable option for extra mags. I keep a Load bearing vest with extra pistol, rifle, and shotgun ammo (along with a first aid kit and such) in the trunk of my patrol car for that, so I can just throw it on and have more otpions.

on recognizing the killer prior to the incident, that is a tough one. I believe he was kicked out of college for making threats against the college and had undergound Physcological care as a result. but he was labeled as "cured" by the state. from what I've seen and read he was an odd fellow who was suspicious of the congresswoman because she could not answer a question that he asked her a few years earlier. I beleive reports said it was "" how can we trust polititions if words have no meaning"

in hindsight we should have known he had mental issues, but hopw could anypne have know that hhe was going to do such a heinous act when he did ? we could ask the same question about Suhan Surhan, or mark david Chapman, even charles whitman. or Lee harvey Oswald. we cannot predict what people will do anbecause thay are people and therefore unpredictable.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:15 pm

I find it very interesting, these subjects. They bring out alot about one's ethics and personality. The problem with letting every"joe" cpl'r act as a LEO is that the majority are not trained properly. I have been to the range enough, as a shooter and an RSO, to realize that many shooters can't even hit a target, abuse common sense safety rules, and don't practice enough properly. I can envision some CC people missing the target and hitting an innocent. How many CC's would soil their pants when "push came to shove", so to speak? Are CC REALLY prepared to take another life in this situation? It all is so easy in forums and talking to the guys at the range, but to get involved in such a situation can open a "can of worms" many are not prepared for. It's a tough situation.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:48 pm

Haka, you raise a good question. My mentor at the old range where I sot a lot was a 20 year veteran retired Detroit police detective Sgt, and he had been involve in at least a dozen shootings. As far as can a CC or even a LEO shoot another person, is a question that can only be surmised at present and can only be answered for sure at the time it has to be done.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:31 pm

Hakaman wrote:I find it very interesting, these subjects. They bring out alot about one's ethics and personality. The problem with letting every"joe" cpl'r act as a LEO is that the majority are not trained properly. I have been to the range enough, as a shooter and an RSO, to realize that many shooters can't even hit a target, abuse common sense safety rules, and don't practice enough properly. I can envision some CC people missing the target and hitting an innocent. How many CC's would soil their pants when "push came to shove", so to speak? Are CC REALLY prepared to take another life in this situation? It all is so easy in forums and talking to the guys at the range, but to get involved in such a situation can open a "can of worms" many are not prepared for. It's a tough situation.

If you can't answer that question you should leave your gun at home. then you can try to answer the question "why do I carry ?" and "Can I sit idlely by and let someone hurt or kill others if I have the oppertunity, abilty and equipment to stop it?" there is a lot of responsibility that goes into CCW that most folks do not think about before they get their permit.

I could not live with myself if I was at a mass shooting and I could not or did not try to do something. your mileage may vary but that is my thoughts on it.

bigfatdave · Post by **bigfatdave** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:46 am

bgreenea3 wrote:I believe the 32 or so round 9m glock mags were intended to be used with the SELECT-Fire Glock 18, where the extra rounds are more than likely needed on full auto fire. I think that if someone had a Kel-tec rifle in 9mm that took the glock mags it would be the cats meow in that gun just great for plinking or home defense. OR many of my co-workers have put together an "active shooter kit" or "Bug out bag" and if your go to battle gun is a glock 9mm it could be a viable option for extra mags. I keep a Load bearing vest with extra pistol, rifle, and shotgun ammo (along with a first aid kit and such) in the trunk of my patrol car for that, so I can just throw it on and have more options.

That's why I have three of them. Range use more than tactical time, but they're always loaded up with ball ammo, the G17 mags are loaded with Gold Dots.
And it is a lot of fun to blast out a target with 31 rounds of rapid fire, I dropped a super-long mag in a pocket while doing a "cheap carbine throwdown" with a buddy and his Hi-Point ... he had a 10x mag for his so I loaded up a 10x mag for mine and sneakily dropped the supermag in a pocket. 10 rounds each on the targets, he started complaining about how his "sights are off again" and I smiled, pointed downrange, and blew out three more targets' centers in about 15 seconds.

===

Restricting hardware is pointless, restricting the lawful can't stop the lawless, a small-change weapons charge doesn't even register to the mind of someone planning murder or another violent felony. Improving mental health services might make a difference, but we're talking about a small subset of the population, and a small range of their craziness that would be helped, and a larger range of their craziness that wouldn't have gone violent anyway, plus the ones who would go violent with or without "help". It isn't about disarming the crazies, even .. they can still drive, buy fertilizer and diesel, or get guns on the black market ... deterring them from their little violent fantasies is the only way, and that means they should expect resistance from any potential victim, not a audience of quivering compliant victims to project the rage onto.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:15 pm

If you can't answer that question you should leave your gun at home. then you can try to answer the question "why do I carry ?

I agree, but I also think some CC's people have answered that question without really thinking too deeply about it. I still think a good percentage of CC's that answer the question "yes, I intend to use my piece in a situation like this", don't really understand the stresses involved, or have the training to see it through. They don't train, practice, or rehearse the scenario enough to be competent in such a highly stressful situation. Heck, I shoot weekly many rounds, RSO often enough, have a pretty good understanding of how hg's work, but realize that it would be difficult to take out even a BG. Talk is cheap, walk is for the brave !
Haka

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:31 pm

hak, you would be suprised that there are police officers out there who cannot answer that question.

I have found that running scenarios through my head I have cut my response times down when I do get into the "what if" situations because I already have a plan. without a p[lan the most important thing quits working, our brains.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 3:06 pm

I have found that running scenarios through my head I have cut my response times down when I do get into the "what if" situations because I already have a plan.

Good point, it pays to be prepared, and rehearsing in your mind different scenarios is of great value. When I have some spare time to think, I often do this exercise. It is sort of funny, the most difficult time I have had RSO'g was when a local police, and a few of his non police friends, were at the range shooting. They couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. After a while I got tired of telling them they must hit the target for safety purposes. Sigh, they finally had enough and went home.
Haka

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:31 pm

haka,
Detroit police are Different............

I shall say no mre.

Yleefox · Post by **Yleefox** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:49 pm

My understanding is that the Congresswoman was offered security and turned it down because she wanted her constituents to be feel the could get closer to her. I can not help but wonder what the outcome would have been had she agreed to the security.

My personal view of banning high cap mags, is that it's a worthless endevour. If someone wants to commit mass murder bad enough, they are going to find a way. Should we ban private citizens from taking flying lessons just because a group of terrorist crashed planes into the WTC? Or ban the private possession of fertilizer because some jerk used some to blow up a building in OK?

I for one am sick and tired of having well meaning, but misguided politicians trying to control my life with law after law, because a few miscreants can not lead responsible, moral, and decent lives.

Okay, I'm through with my soapbox.

Y

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:52 pm

misguided politicians trying to control my life with law after law

It would be "mind boggling" to see a book with all the federal, state, and local laws in it.
Crazy Laws in Michigan

* According to one law, a wife's hair belongs to her husband legally.
* A woman is not allowed to cut her own hair, without the permission of her husband.
* It is illegal to sleep in a bathtub in Detroit, Michigan.
* If a robber gets hurt in the house he was robbing, he can legally file a suit against the home owner.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:07 pm

Hakaman wrote:
misguided politicians trying to control my life with law after law
It would be "mind boggling" to see a book with all the federal, state, and local laws in it.
Crazy Laws in Michigan

* According to one law, a wife's hair belongs to her husband legally.
* A woman is not allowed to cut her own hair, without the permission of her husband.
* It is illegal to sleep in a bathtub in Detroit, Michigan.
* If a robber gets hurt in the house he was robbing, he can legally file a suit against the home owner.

you forgot that is illegal to incite an indian to commit a crime.
and the state supreme court uled that it IS legal to swear in front of women and children.

Hakaman · Post by **Hakaman** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:16 pm

and the state supreme court uled that it IS legal to swear in front of women and children.

This law was grouped with the other 4 I included, but hakaman new it was repealed, I think in 2002? We need to get half of the politicians repealed, if they could be?
h

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:04 pm

I might sleep in my bath tub, if was an old cast iron one if I lived in some areas of Detroit.......might be safer

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:00 am

bgreenea3 wrote:I might sleep in my bath tub, if was an old cast iron one if I lived in some areas of Detroit.......might be safer

Now that makes a lot of sense, keeps any stray high speed projectiles from causing any body damage.