I purchased a new S&W Mod. 41 and was able to shoot it for the first time last Friday. Conditions weren't the greatest: snow covered the range, temps in the mid-40s. Very nice pistol but I experienced a problem I've not had before with a Ruger Mark III and S&W 22a. Searched this and other forums and couldn't find discussion of the same problem.
Multiple times the second round in the magazine failed to feed after the first round fired. The slide went foward completely but the second round was not chambered. This happened with (I think) both new magazines. After manually working the slide to chamber the second round, the balance of the magazine fed fine. I also had a several stovepipes.
I used Eley Sport SV ammo as I figured that would be better for the gun than HV. I did try several magazines of Federal bulk HV HP ammo that I've been using in the 22a and did not have the problem.
I've wondered if a too-stiff recoil spring might be the problem, allowing the slide to travel far enough to eject but not far enough to pick up the next round. Only problem with that theory is that virtually all FTF's were after the first round. You'd think they would be more random (or frequent) if the spring is the cause.
There is slight up/down play in the magazine when locked in position but I'm not sure that's contributing to the problem. Also, the throats of the mags are very tight on the cartridge case, certainly more than any other .22 mag I've handled.
Would appreciate any thoughts any of you might have on what the problem might be. Thanks.
S&W Mod. 41 magazine feed problem
Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators
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bebloomster
- Regular contributor
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- Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:06 pm
- Location: Hi Desert, Ca
Welcome to the forum!
Right now I think you have some breaking in to do. This could be as simple as the slide is not cycling far enough rearward to pick up the second round. Remember, you close the slide on the first round, so in essence it is the first round fed out of the mag during the sustained firing sequence. The rounds in the magazine are pushing upward on the underside of the slide adding a little drag to it. This, combined with the stiffness of a new pistol, may be just a little too much for the recoil system and the weaker recoil of SV ammo. HV ammo is cycling the slide back with more force and therefore able to pick up that next round in the mag. Lubricate the slide rails well. Don't forget the trigger bar area or the recoil spring, and shoot a few hundred rounds of HV. Then try your SV again and see if that doesn't improve the cycling.
R,
Bullseye
Right now I think you have some breaking in to do. This could be as simple as the slide is not cycling far enough rearward to pick up the second round. Remember, you close the slide on the first round, so in essence it is the first round fed out of the mag during the sustained firing sequence. The rounds in the magazine are pushing upward on the underside of the slide adding a little drag to it. This, combined with the stiffness of a new pistol, may be just a little too much for the recoil system and the weaker recoil of SV ammo. HV ammo is cycling the slide back with more force and therefore able to pick up that next round in the mag. Lubricate the slide rails well. Don't forget the trigger bar area or the recoil spring, and shoot a few hundred rounds of HV. Then try your SV again and see if that doesn't improve the cycling.
R,
Bullseye
Thanks for the tips. Just a follow-up from today's outing.
Gun was clean and well-lubed. I shot ~180 rounds of Federal bulk HV HP; function was fine except for 3 or 4 stovepipes. Then I fired a dozen rounds of Eley Sport SV. Shot partial magazines (2 to 4 rounds); each time, the second round didn't auto-feed. From one 4-rnd mag, another round also failed to load. On one 2-round mag, the second round didn't load and, after manually chambering it, the slide did not lock back on the empy mag.
It's obvious that the slide is not cycling rearward far enough some of the time with the Eley ammo. What's not clear is if additional "break-in" time will make any difference. It could be that the Eley Sport just won't function reliably with the factory recoil spring.
I'll try again on the next outing after some additional HV. I also picked up some Remington Target loads at Wal-Mart on the way home and will try that to see if it is any better. Haven't been able to find any CCI SV yet locally which appears to be the generally recommended load on this and other forums.
Gun was clean and well-lubed. I shot ~180 rounds of Federal bulk HV HP; function was fine except for 3 or 4 stovepipes. Then I fired a dozen rounds of Eley Sport SV. Shot partial magazines (2 to 4 rounds); each time, the second round didn't auto-feed. From one 4-rnd mag, another round also failed to load. On one 2-round mag, the second round didn't load and, after manually chambering it, the slide did not lock back on the empy mag.
It's obvious that the slide is not cycling rearward far enough some of the time with the Eley ammo. What's not clear is if additional "break-in" time will make any difference. It could be that the Eley Sport just won't function reliably with the factory recoil spring.
I'll try again on the next outing after some additional HV. I also picked up some Remington Target loads at Wal-Mart on the way home and will try that to see if it is any better. Haven't been able to find any CCI SV yet locally which appears to be the generally recommended load on this and other forums.
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bebloomster
- Regular contributor
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:06 pm
- Location: Hi Desert, Ca
Wolff gun springs makes a S&W M-41 recoil spring calibration pack. The springs come in 6#, 6.5#,and 7#sizes. You can change the springs for lower powered ammo. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=626285
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
Further update from today's shooting.
Shot mostly Federal bulk HV HP for about 150 rounds. Then tried some Remington Target roundnose (40 gr lubricated lead). These cycled fine although I did have 2 (out of 20) mis-fires; one of these fired on second strike, other did not.
A few rounds of Eley Sport produced the same issue as before. On 2-round mag, the second round didn't load and, after manually chambering it, the slide did not lock back on the empy mag.
The Eley has a published muzzle velocity of 1085 where the Remington Target is listed at 1150. This must be just enough difference for the slide to cycle far enough with the Remington but not with the Eley. Guess I'll have to use ammo with something close to 1150 or get a slightly lighter recoil spring. I had looked at the Wolf springs but didn't want to buy anything until I have a better handle on the problem.
Still looking for CCI SV. Thanks for helpful comments so far.
Shot mostly Federal bulk HV HP for about 150 rounds. Then tried some Remington Target roundnose (40 gr lubricated lead). These cycled fine although I did have 2 (out of 20) mis-fires; one of these fired on second strike, other did not.
A few rounds of Eley Sport produced the same issue as before. On 2-round mag, the second round didn't load and, after manually chambering it, the slide did not lock back on the empy mag.
The Eley has a published muzzle velocity of 1085 where the Remington Target is listed at 1150. This must be just enough difference for the slide to cycle far enough with the Remington but not with the Eley. Guess I'll have to use ammo with something close to 1150 or get a slightly lighter recoil spring. I had looked at the Wolf springs but didn't want to buy anything until I have a better handle on the problem.
Still looking for CCI SV. Thanks for helpful comments so far.
Is a recoil spring change enough to make the 41 reliably cycle cheaper HV ammo? I'm practicing with CCI SV, which isn't horrible, but if I can practice with ammo that's half as much for the price of a spring set, so much the better...
Last edited by Nick on Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nate,
In my case, the cheaper bulk high-velocity ammo has functioned fine. It's only the much lower SV (Eley @ 1085) that won't cycle the slide properly. I would be more concerned with the higher "battering" level associated with shooting HV all the time, although a recoil buffer might mitigate the effects.
In my case, the cheaper bulk high-velocity ammo has functioned fine. It's only the much lower SV (Eley @ 1085) that won't cycle the slide properly. I would be more concerned with the higher "battering" level associated with shooting HV all the time, although a recoil buffer might mitigate the effects.
I've read and was told by my gun shop that it's not reliable with anything but Eley Target and CCI SV, Mini-Mags, and Green Tag, so I haven't tried anything except CCI SV. I have almost two cases of it now, but when it comes time to order again I don't want to contribute to the shortage by stockpiling again. None of those seem widely available to me, so it would be great to have some other choices when then time comes. On the other hand, I don't want to shoot anything that'll harm the gun... it aint broke and I'd like to keep it that way!
So short answer is no, I haven't had any problems so far, but that's just been by sticking with what I know will work.
So short answer is no, I haven't had any problems so far, but that's just been by sticking with what I know will work.
Had the Model 41 on the range again last night indoors. Tried a couple of other standard velocity brands that had same cycling problem as the Eley Sport.
Shot box of 50 Winchester Super-X T22 Target (muzzle vel. 1150). Had 3 stovepipes, 1 failure to extract the case fully, and 6 where the slide didn't cycle back far enough to pick up the next round.
A box of Aguila SuperExtra (Eley Prime) (muzzle vel. 1035) also had 5 failures to feed but no other issues.
I've pretty well concluded that the factory spring is borderline with SV ammo and will probably be ordering the Wolf recoil spring set.
Shot box of 50 Winchester Super-X T22 Target (muzzle vel. 1150). Had 3 stovepipes, 1 failure to extract the case fully, and 6 where the slide didn't cycle back far enough to pick up the next round.
A box of Aguila SuperExtra (Eley Prime) (muzzle vel. 1035) also had 5 failures to feed but no other issues.
I've pretty well concluded that the factory spring is borderline with SV ammo and will probably be ordering the Wolf recoil spring set.
Bullseye,
Thank you for your thoughts and guidance. This forum has been full of good info.
I would also guess that a half-pound decrease in the spring (from factory nominal 7.5# to a Wolf 7#) would probably be enough for the ammo I've tried so far.
However, some of the target/match velocities run down to the 1070-1080 neighborhood and below. Although I don't know if I'll ever be good enough to justify the cost of match-grade ammo, I'm wondering if I should order the 3-spring Wolf set to have available all of the spring weights. The cost of a single spring (I'd have to pre-determine the weight I need) is about half the cost of the set of three where I'd have the ability to change as needed. Does it make sense to purchase the set? How likely is it that the 7# spring will function with ammo at 1070 MV or might the 6.5# be needed?
I'm assuming from what I've read on the forum that a recoil buffer makes sense and plan to get one. How will this factor into function (and wear and tear) with the different spring weights? Does a buffer really need to be replaced every thousand rounds or so?
Anyone have first-hand experience that can help? Thanks.
Thank you for your thoughts and guidance. This forum has been full of good info.
I would also guess that a half-pound decrease in the spring (from factory nominal 7.5# to a Wolf 7#) would probably be enough for the ammo I've tried so far.
However, some of the target/match velocities run down to the 1070-1080 neighborhood and below. Although I don't know if I'll ever be good enough to justify the cost of match-grade ammo, I'm wondering if I should order the 3-spring Wolf set to have available all of the spring weights. The cost of a single spring (I'd have to pre-determine the weight I need) is about half the cost of the set of three where I'd have the ability to change as needed. Does it make sense to purchase the set? How likely is it that the 7# spring will function with ammo at 1070 MV or might the 6.5# be needed?
I'm assuming from what I've read on the forum that a recoil buffer makes sense and plan to get one. How will this factor into function (and wear and tear) with the different spring weights? Does a buffer really need to be replaced every thousand rounds or so?
Anyone have first-hand experience that can help? Thanks.
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blue68f100
- Master contributor
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