S&W Mod. 41 magazine feed problem

[Bullseye]

The three spring set would be a good thing to have in case you need to adjust your spring weight to varying ammo.

The recoil buffer is a good idea if you're going to shoot HV. They last a long time, I've never had to replace one yet. When shooting SV ammo, I take the buffer out. It's just insurance to keep the slide from battering the trigger stop.

R,
Bullseye

[Nick]

Here's a link to the recoil buffer.

Is there any reason not to use it with SV?

[Bullseye]

I don't see any reason not to use the buffer, as the slide will not be thrust rearward with enough force to slam the guide against the triggerguard stop block with SV ammunition. There is a small chance that the stop could interfere with the recoil spring using SV ammo because it covers the last three to four coils. However, you can test the results, with and without the buffer, and evaluate the performance for yourself.

R,
Bullseye

[Nick]

Thanks, I'll do that and let you all know how it goes.

[STB_43]

Further update from last night's session with the Model 41. I am still looking for the Wolff spring set (out of stock at MidwayUSA) but I did receive the recoil buffer I ordered and used it for the first time yesterday.

Since I had only the factory spring which I knew wouldn't work with SV ammo, I shot the same Federal bulk HV we have been using with the buffer in place. Was very surprised to experience at least 4 or 5 failures to feed (out of approx. 200 rnds) where the slide didn't cycle far enough to pick up the next round. This occurred only after the first round (of 10) in the magazine; the second round didn't feed. Everything else functioned fine. I had not had this in several previous sessions when shooting HV, only when trying to shoot SV.

The only difference to earlier sessions was the buffer. Anyone know if the buffer can contribute to this behavior? And why only the second round in the mag? Is it possible that the spring tension with 9 rnds still in the mag is "holding" the case tight enough that the slide can't move it? Again, there is slight up and down play with the magazine locked in place; maybe the mag is being pushed down if the cartidge doesn't move freely?

Anyone have any thoughts?

[Bullseye]

The first thing I'd say is how does the pistol function without the buffer in place? The second round along with the buffer could be causing the slide to short cycle and not pick up that second round. After the second round is gone, the upward pressure isn't significant enough to prevent the rest from feeding.

R,
Bullseye

[bearandoldman]

The first thing I'd say is how does the pistol function without the buffer in place? The second round along with the buffer could be causing the slide to short cycle and not pick up that second round. After the second round is gone, the upward pressure isn't significant enough to prevent the rest from feeding.

R,
Bullseye

I have a KelTec P3AT that worked much the same way. I would short cycle the slide so that it would not move fa enough to eject the 1st round and would not pick up and load the 2nd. If you manually loaded the 2nd round it ran the rest of the mag perfectly. I cut one turn off the springs in each of the mags and the gun has run perfectly ever since. The spring was putting so much pressure on the top round of the mag against the bottom of the slide, there was just too much drag on the slide for it to operate properly.

[STB_43]

Bullseye,
Since I did not have any short cycling with HV in previous sessions without the buffer, I have to conclude that the buffer was the difference this time.

bearandoldman,
The top of the mags are tight; it requires a little force to insert rounds, much more than S&W 22A mags. There is also significant spring tension in the 41 mags; most of the short cycling I experienced trying SV were also on the second round. I'm not ready to cut springs shorter yet; I'll wait until I have the Wolff recoil spring set to try different combinations.

[STB_43]

Frustrating session last Fri. night. Received my Wolff spring kit on Thur., so I replaced the factory spring with the Wolff 7# and figured I'd be good to go with Eley Sport. Still had short-cycling so I tried the 6.5# spring. Still experienced malfunctions. I tried some Aguila SuperExtra and Remington Target with similar results. All these trials were using the recoil buffer.

Finally abandoned the SV ammo since the setup for our club open shoot wasn't the best for a detailed trial of combinations. What was really frustrating was a continuation of frequent (not every time) short-cycling even after switching to Federal Lightning (Load #510B) HV (muz vel 1240). It was almost always the second round that failed to chamber even though I was shooting 6-round strings and therefore the mags were not full to start with. Very disconcerting to begin shooting a 6-shot 10-second string and not have a second round to fire.

I guess the next step will be to measure how much the recoil buffer is restricting the rearward travel of the slide; it may be too long??? Then I'm going back to my designed experiment days and set up a matrix of combinations (ammo, springs, buffer). Next range outing will have to be a lot of experimenting.

I'm still looking for some CCI SV (1070) but I have trouble believing it'll act any differently from Eley Sport (1085) or Aguila SuperExtra (1135).

The most puzzling aspect of this whole business is that failure to feed and stovepipes are almost always on the second round of the magazine, even if the mag is not full. And, it doesn't happen on every mag load.

Anyone have any other thoughts or suggestions?? I'll post further info after I have another chance to shoot next week. Thanks.

[Bullseye]

I don't right now. I'll investigate further to see if I can make one fail in the way you've described.

R,
Bullseye

[STB_43]

Preparing for tomorrow night at the local club informal indoor shoot, I've got a trial matrix of "ammo/recoil spring/with buffer and without" combinations to work toward a resolution of my model 41 failure to feed problems. Hopefully, I'll know what springs to use for different ammo velocities and whether or not the buffer has a negative effect.

However, the fact that the FTF's have almost always been on the second round of the magazine (regardless of how full it was to start) has been bugging me. I know that the recoil buffer is loose in the frame and can float forward. This can be seen, after removing the barrel, by unlocking the slide and allowing to go forward. The buffer is usually pulled forward by the spring. I never gave this a thought until yesterday.

Theory: maybe during typical handling between strings the buffer is sometimes sliding forward. Normally (at least for me) the barrel is at a downward angle while magazines are inserted and the slide is released manually to chamber the first round. With nothing to fix the buffer in place, this may be enough to move it forward on the spring.

Then on the first shot, it stands to reason that part of the recoil energy is absorbed when the slide has to push the buffer rearward into position. This may be just enough to cause it to slightly short-cycle and fail to pick up the second round. Following shots are not affected because the buffer is now pretty much in position and the slide can function without interference.

So, for tomorrow night's experimenting, I thought I'd try to "anchor" the buffer in place. I propose to apply tape (masking tape?) to both flat sides of the buffer (to keep it centered) with sufficient thickness to create a slight "press" fit in the frame. I haven't measured or experimented yet to know how many layers might be needed but I'll work on that. I'm expecting that it won't take much to hold the buffer in position between the sides of the frame channel as long as it is not pressed down hard on the spring.

I'd appreciate any further thoughts anyone has on the efficacy of my theory and also any suggestions on the best method of fixing the buffer in place. Thanks.

[Locoweed]

Apologies for reviving such an old post but I'm a new member and am just now looking things over.
The solution to your problem is to put a drop of oil on the nose of the first cartridge in every magazine, or you can wipe the first round down with a slightly oily patch. This problem was recently discussed on the Rimfire Central forum and the Smith & Wesson forum and everyone agrees that this fix really works. And stick to CCI SV ammo. Let us know how it works.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=338103

[blue68f100]

Locoweed.

Welcome to Guntalk-Online

[Locoweed]

Thanks for the welcome. I'm going to enjoy it here. Here's the link I was looking for from the S&W forum on second round feeding:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wess ... azine.html

[Locoweed]

Well, did you try oiling your bullets and how did it work? Problem solved?