Gripping a Mk II

A section to discuss marksmanship issues: techniques, equipment, experiences, etc.

Also, a place to ask marksmanship related questions to seek information from the vast knowledge base of this forum's membership.

Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators

mark II
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 pm
Location: Mass.

Gripping a Mk II

Post by mark II » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:54 am

Hi guys,
Need some advice as to how you hold a Mk II for bullseye shooting. For 6 months I've held it as thought I was shaking someone's hand, if that make sense. It doesn't seem to line up good, target, barrel, and my eye. I think I bend my wrist slightly to make a good line. Feels good and is a tight fit. Also my trigger finger is on the trigger at the first crease of my finger.
I've changed the way I grip it by lining the trigger gaurd being on top of the pad between the first and second joints. It lines up better but I have a space between my hand and the grip which I don't think is good. Plus my score dropped to well..... low. My trigger finger is not as far in on the trigger.
looking for ideas and why.
Thanks
Mark II

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:53 pm

This is a very good question. I'm going to answer it, but I don't have the time right now for the detail that I will go into answering it.

R,
Bullseye
Image

mark II
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 pm
Location: Mass.

Post by mark II » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:33 pm

I'm looking forward to your reply Bullseye.
Mark II

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:35 pm

Establishing a proper grip is very important in bullseye shooting. To do this the shooter takes the pistol in the non-shooting hand, and grasps the barrel. With the shooting hand (strong side hand or dominant eye side hand) the shooter creates a 'U' shape with the thumb and index finger. The other fingers are relaxed and behind the index finger as the shooter views the hand. The shooter then places the pistol firmly into the U shape with the weak hand, so that the backstrap of the pistol is firmly against the fleshy part of the palm. The three lower fingers wrap around the front strap of the pistol's grip. The middle and ring finger actually do the gripping on the pistol. These fingers do not grasp the pistol's grip by the finger tips, but by the second bones of the finger on the front strap. The pinkie (little) finger rests lightly against the grip but is not used to grasp it. The thumb is aligned straight out from along the grip, with the thumb tip curved outward. The thumb rests alongside the grip and holds it secure in the palm but not overly tight. The index finger is placed on the trigger, ideally on the index finger pad. The rest of the index (trigger) finger does not touch the pistol's frame or the grip, the only contact is with the trigger face.

Here is the one-handed grip style demonstrated on a 1911 style pistol:

Image

The grip is firm enough to hold the pistol secure in the hand through recoil, but not too firm, as to cause trembling in the hand and arm muscles.

Here is a shooter demonstrating the one-handed "bullseye" style with a Ruger 22 Auto pistol:

Image

The arm and the hand grasping the pistol form one solid line to control recoil and facilitate shot recovery for sustained firing strings. The shooter also has his non-shooting hand tucked into a pocket to prevent body swinging and reduce wobble. His body has the weight equally distributed over both feet and the shooter has compensated by shifting his upper body back slightly. This positioning also brings the arm, and sights up in a straight-line manner, in direct alignment with the aiming eye. If the shooter closes his eyes and relaxes his body with the pistol up in the aiming position, he will shift his trunk into the natural point of aim (NPA) position. Opening his eyes, he will see if the pistol's sights are on the target and aligned under the aiming black. If not, the shooter shifts his feet slightly to align the pistol, then reapplies the closed eyes and relax technique for finding NPA. Make stance adjustments as necessary followed up by the closed eye NPA technique. Once NPA foot positions are established, the shooter does not move his feet. Now when he goes into his aiming and trigger squeeze sequence, the natural relaxation of his trunk muscles will not affect his natural aiming point. Never adjust the upper body (trunk) by twisting to center the target - always shift the feet. Otherwise as the shooter concentrates on the aiming sequence the body's muscles will relax and naturally drift the sights off target.

Earlier, I said the trigger is ideally centered on the index finger pad. However, not everyone can do this and have the finger movement not disturb the sights, as the index finger travels rearward and activates the trigger. Because everyone's body shape is different, a slight shifting of the trigger finger placement may be necessary to accomplish good index finger movement. The goal is to have the finger travel through the full trigger movement range without it disturbing the pistol's sight alignment. Achieving this may mean that someone might have to increase their finger position inward, perhaps all the way to the first joint.

Here is a picture depicting finger two different placement styles:

Image

I hope this helps with grip and positioning for bullseye shooting with a Ruger 22 Auto pistol.

R,
Bullseye
Image

User avatar
Hardball
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:37 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Hardball » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:19 am

Notice in the above 45 grip picture the mainspring housing is positioned in the crease between the base of the thumb ham and the pinkie side ham. But that is with a 45. I think it to be kind of hard to do this with the MkII grip.

Stippling front and back adds good traction to the grip. Or similarly for me with larger hands, the finger groove Hogue rubber grip and rear stippling. After pressing the rear grip strap into my palm hams, I stretch my third (ring) finger around the front prior to placing the middle finger. I think emphasizing third finger grip aids in firming the wrist.

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:17 am

Bullseye thanks for explaining the proper grip for target shooting. I all ways wondered what was the correct way. I only know one friend that shoots that way, 1 hand and stance.

I was never taught how to shoot bullseye target shooting. I was taught to shoot with 2 hands weaver stance not isocilies (? how ever it spelled).

There is a slight difference in grip if your shooting a DA gun. I find that the best trigger control since the pull is longer and harder >8lbs the finger is between the first joint and pad. For me on the pad all the way up to joint. I know this varies with each person. Since I have small hands/short fingers I normally have to change the grips on most guns. Then when you get to shooting combat or PD style most all teach the 2 hand grip over 1 hand (and single handed too) . At the same time most combat guns do not have a 2# trigger, too. Well maybe a 1911 thats been worked on. Trigger travel distance for DA guns are normally >3/8" if not striker fire.

What are your recommendations for a DA grip and 2 hand grip. The method should be the same except maybe the finger position.

I have started using laser for when I do dry fire practice when I can't make it to the range. I shows any movement as you pull the trigger. A great training aid.

Then revolvers are different too.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:38 pm

Shooting with two hands is not something I normally do but I can do it well. There's basically two styles of shooting an semiauto pistol with two hands. Both involve cradling the strong hand with the weak hand and are similar except for the thumb positioning. Both of these two-handed styles lend themselves well to use with either the Isosceles or the Weaver stance.

The first one (and the one I use most) is the two-hand cradle with the strong thumb resting parallel with the weaker hand thumb. This is the two-handed parallel thumb method:

Image

The strong hand grips the pistol very much like a one-handed style. The weaker hand slides up underneath the strong hand up to the strong side thumb and cradles the pistol. The weak hand's fingers wrap over the strong hand's fingers. Notice how the weak hand thumb is aligned parallel to the strong hand's thumb. The strong side's thumb is just resting on top of the weaker one. Both hands apply firm, even, pressure on the pistol's grip area to maintain recoil recovery control. But not so much pressure as to cause muscle trembling. Both wrists are kept firmly tensioned to evenly distribute recoil down through the supporting arms. It is very important that the weaker hand is positioned in such a way that it doesn't interfere or contact with the trigger finger throughout its full range of motion.

At the range the two-handed parallel thumb method would look something like this:

Image

I find one big advantage to using the parallel thumb method is during reloading. You can slide a fresh magazine into the pistol, slide the weak hand right back into position and activate the slide stop, all in one swift motion. The weak hand's thumb can also more easily activate the magazine release as it starts moving toward a spare magazine on the gunbelt.

The second two-handed grip style is very much like the first, except the strong side thumb is held lower on the grip, and the weak side's thumb is crossed over the top of it. This is the two-handed crossed thumb method:

Image

Everything else is basically set up as in the previous mentioned in the paragraph above in the parallel thumb grip method.

When using a Dual Action trigger system, I too find that I have to place my trigger finger all the way up next to the first joint on the index finger to maintain sight alignment through the entire length of pull.

Hope this helps.

R,
Bullseye
Image

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 5:33 pm

Bullseye, Yes that helps, I do notice that my weak side hand is higher up under the slide, but under the take down lever. This allow me to handle the recoil easier, gun returns back on the target. Some instructors now are saying that the weak hand should do 60-70% of the grip, allowing the strong hand only to pull the trigger. I do shoot better when I apply more grip with the weak side.

On the thumbs over I use that grip on my BHP.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

mark II
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 pm
Location: Mass.

Post by mark II » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:15 pm

Thanks guys for your help. Still a little confused because it seems when I form the U shape and place the gun in my hand my second knuckles end up on the front strap. I know it's the size of my hand but should I leave it like that,I'm use to it but line up is not there(target,sights then eye)or back the fingers out a little, with gap on the side and work on getting use to it? Telling ya it's always something!
mark II

User avatar
Hardball
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:37 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Hardball » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:31 pm

Read what the AMU has said about gripping the 45. This is from an earlier printing of the AMU Manual
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter1.htm
scroll down to "grip"

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:38 am

Try turning the pistol a little leftwards in the palm of your hand until the bones of the second joints end up on the front strap. This may feel awkward at first but the result will be a more direct line with the center of the pistol and a straight rearward pull on the trigger.

R,
Bullseye
Image

mark II
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 pm
Location: Mass.

Post by mark II » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:33 am

Thank you.
I'll try a little change next time out.

mark II
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:43 pm
Location: Mass.

Post by mark II » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:00 pm

Well I shot last night at a club practice, with the lines being call and althought I shot a 270 I never feel"in the zone". If thats what you want to call it. Slow fire was a 76, two got away from me. Timed was a 97 and that was good. Rapid was a 97 and one got away from me.
I think I'm going to try making a grip out of bondo, I have shaped a piece of wood to match my frame. Can't hurt right.
mark II

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:49 pm

What might help you decide is the use of a laser. Either a bore sighter or rail mount will work. Then do some dry fire practice and see what the dot is doing. If it's staying on target and not moving you should be there. The laser will show push/pull and any other movement. It took me several days to find a grip that worked with my small hands. In fact it was not corrected till I changed grips that had a thinner backstrap, shortening my reach. Now with my airsoft it show the movement like a round going off, up and down. Now I know why one guy at the indoor range was on the ceiling, and all over the place.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:35 am

One match does not a good evaluation make. I mentioned that you would not feel comfortable with the change to your grip. Remember, you were not satisfied with your original grip/stance style with the Mark II and that is why you wanted to change it. However, you were comfortable with the old grip and that you have to overcome to see an improvement in your performance. Give this some more time before abandoning it. See if there is an improvement over some time. This position has to feel more natural to you before you can truly concentrate on the fundamentals of marksmanship and therefore maximize your performance with it.

What is your normal average per match course? The sustained stages seem acceptable, it may just be the slow fire technique that you need to refine.

R,
Bullseye
Image

Post Reply