Well, it was interesting

[Yleefox]

I took my Ultradot scoped Mark III to the range today for the second time. This is the first red dot optic that I've used and I would describe it as the "dancing dot".

Anyway, last trip to the range with it, I spent my time primarily getting familiar with the red dot. This time, I actually tried to hit the target with some degree of accuracy. Gradually the dancing dot got tired of dancing all over the target and began to settle down a bit. Once I gained a bit of confidence with it, I switched from a two handed hold to a one hand hold. Wow. The dancing dot caught it's second wind. But once again it eventually settled down somewhat. Soon however, my arm began to get tired and the dot caught a third wind. That's when I called it a day.

I have a new found respect for those of you who shoot bullseye competition. My arm and shoulder still feels the strain. I wasn't really surprised by any of the above, but I did have one thing going on that I can not explain. I noticed that I had a habit of canting the pistol counter-clockwise, when I was shooting with one hand. Once I became aware of it, I concentrated on holding the pistol straight up and down, but would soon notice I was canting it again. Any idea on how to fix this? And why it was happening?

Yleefox

[perazzi]

Interesting, I'm left handed and find the similar problem only clockwise, hmmm..

Anyway, 2 things I found that seem to help solve the "dancing dot" syndrome.

I focus on the target itself, not the dot, I know it's contrary, but, it goes to where I'm looking (Well, relatively speaking!) Irons I still focus on the front sight.

I keep both eyes open when using the dot, it really, really, helped...

Make sure you know which is your dominate eye...

and, lotsa trapshooting always helps.

[Yleefox]

Interesting that you cant too. I did concentrate on the target, however unlike what u suggested I was just using one eye to sight. I am right eye dom. I've been shooting rifles and pistols that way my entire life, but lately I've been trying to break that old habit and keep both eyes open, however today, it never occurred to me to open both of them.

Yleefox

[Hardball]

Nothing wrong with a little cant. As long as it is consistent and naturally helps align and position the sights on the seeing line. Never force the position away from natural, sights aligned on the seeing line.

[Bullseye]

The cant is natural for your forearm's position. Lots of folks use a cant style hold, including Brian Zins. Don't stress about it. By the way, when you relax and forget about the dot, that's when it stops dancing! I believe you just figured that one out for yourself. Just relax and concentrate on the squeeze the dot will take care of itself.

R,
Bullseye

[stork]

Interesting, I'm left handed and find the similar problem only clockwise, hmmm..
I focus on the target itself, not the dot, I know it's contrary, but, it goes to where I'm looking (Well, relatively speaking!) Irons I still focus on the front sight.

Brian Zins also focus' on the target, not the dot. I don't think anyone would claim he's doing it wrong.

I've tried it and it normally doesn't work for me as well as focusing on the dot. The only time it works, for me, is when I'm scattering my shots. Then I'll make a concentrated effort to ignore the dot and let my subconscious break the shot while keeping my focus on the target and concentrate on moving the trigger.

Just one of the mind games we play with ourselves.

Regarding your cant, it's ok. Here's a link to an AMU rapid fire clean target. I believe the shooter is Sgt James Henderson (at least that's what I was told). He uses the center hold, which I also like. But really watch his sight alignment. It is virtually perfect. Yes, he wobbles around but his wobble is in the black. He just keeps moving the trigger and it breaks a 10 or x.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBxZsf5Mps

Another interesting bit is at the beginning of the second string. Notice he brings the pistol down, but his natural point of aim is to the right of the target. He then adjusts his stance to center his sight alignment on the center of the paper.

FWIW
Stork

[Yleefox]

Thanks for the replies. I will stop worrying about the cant and just concentrate on the squeeze. Stork, I watched that video at least 8 or 10 times, it was interesting to watch him shoot. Thank you for including that link. BTW, what was he shooting (firearm)?

Bullseye, elsewhere I remember you mentioned using a couple of different devices to help you strengthen your hold. One was a wrist roller I believe and I have forgotten the other. Could you elaborate on them? Thanks.

I've also got to work on strengthen my arm and shoulder muscles if I'm going to have any chance of holding the pistol relatively steady for any lenght of time. I've thought that perhaps just holding it at home in as steady a hold as possible, a couple of times a day might help. Any comments?

Thanks again to all

Y

[perazzi]

Yleefox, I think the idea is to not hold it out there very long !!!

I'm pretty sure it's a Beretta 9mm.. probably the 92F???

He uses the center hold, which I also like. But really watch his sight alignment. It is virtually perfect. Yes, he wobbles around but his wobble is in the black. He just keeps moving the trigger and it breaks a 10 or x.

Very informative!.

[Hardball]

Guys and gals, dig this
http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/
Brian in the past has said that looking at the target has to have a pretty steady dot in the first place. If the wobble is just too big, you ought to stay looking at the dot, and work on hold. The unsaid thing about looking at the target, to be effective, is it's an advanced thing. IMO.

[perazzi]

Guys and gals, dig this
http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/
Brian in the past has said that looking at the target has to have a pretty steady dot in the first place. If the wobble is just too big, you ought to stay looking at the dot, and work on hold. The unsaid thing about looking at the target, to be effective, is it's an advanced thing. IMO.

Don Nygord wanted you to focus on the dot, Zins changed from that thought process to focusing on the target using the dot. There is a clear reason for focusing on the front sight using irons. Maintaining a strict relationship between the front and rear sights is much more important than the relationship between the front sight and target.

Using the dot removes that necessity. I think either way works, IMHO, focusing on the target and letting the dot float in just seems to be easier on the eyes.

[Bullseye]

A wrist roller with one or two pounds attached to a floor length piece of clothesline is a good start. I also use just an ordinary set of weight training dumbbells for the shoulders and arms. Three to five pounds are fine for these type of strengthening tools. It's the repetitions that build up the arm muscles and prevent fatigue which induces the trembling. Another good tool is a racket ball for squeezing to build up grip strength. I keep one in the glove box console for squeezing while driving.

R,
Bullseye

[Yleefox]

Thanks for the information. I'm going to work out those out of same muscles.

Yleefox

[blue68f100]

Looking at the scores every one shoots better on the TF and RF. The Slow fire is kicking every ones butt so to say. Just because it's slow would it be better to shoot it like a TF or RF or is there a min time length?

[Bullseye]

There is no minimum time to shoot slow fire, only a maximum of ten minutes for ten shots. Generally what accounts for the scores at the reduced ranges is the size and value of the SF target's scoring rings. To be successful in slow fire one must be confident in their abilities, have a steady hold, and perfect trigger control.

R,
Bullseye

[blue68f100]

That makes sense, I forgot their was different targets used. But you left one small detail out, you must be able to see the target clearly at 25 yrds clearly. I need to get my eyes checked again...

What are everyone using for target ammo? I know the cheap bulk ammo will not give 1 ragged hole at 25 yrds. The Fed AutoMatch maybe the best of the bulk ammo. CCI SV?, which I have not found locally within the last year.