Stance and performance

A section to discuss marksmanship issues: techniques, equipment, experiences, etc.

Also, a place to ask marksmanship related questions to seek information from the vast knowledge base of this forum's membership.

Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:07 pm

Allen you've just supported my earlier point of form will follow function. Your form (stance) works for you but it may not work for everyone. Genetics is involved, we all resemble our parents, so the same form that works for you likely works for your children too.

The Merit Optical Disk is a mechanical aid for those who cannot adapt their position to overcome a physical shortcoming. This is a temporary fix for a problem, where LASIK is a permanent solution. The problem with a medical fix is over time our bodies change, so what was once good may not be later with age. I know many folks who chose to have their eyes done and swore by the results. Unfortunately there were consequences, and now their night vision is totally gone, or they see starbursts and rainbows surrounding bright lights. If I can correct mechanically, then I'm not going for the medical option, the procedures are too new and the long term side effects are not yet known.

One has to develop a postion and stick with it. Then refine it slowly and carefully. Don't keep searching for the magic cure because all you'll do is constantly change things and uncontrolled change is not conducive to good shooting performance.

R,
Bullseye
Image

allendavis
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 76
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:27 pm

Stance and Performance

Post by allendavis » Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:43 pm

Bullseye
Allen you've just supported my earlier point of form will follow function. Your form (stance) works for you but it may not work for everyone. Genetics is involved, we all resemble our parents, so the same form that works for you likely works for your children too.
If I want to disagree with you on anything, it would be this point. As a child, I was extremely "small-boned," meaning thin as a rail. I didn't hit 100 pounds in weight until after I hit puberty. Even today, I'm still "small-boned," but my frame is heavier now, better arms due to weight training and a bit of a spare tire around the middle (thank you, Heineken!).

Both of my sons were rather short, squat and overweight during their childhoods, while I was very tall for my age and skinny as a bean-pole. Today, I'm 5'-10" and weigh about 160. My oldest son, Nick, is 6' tall and tips the scales at just under 200 lbs., and is built like Arnold Schwartzenegger. My youngest son, Bradley (the vet), is 5'-9" but weighs about 185 and has a chest like a barrel and arms that would put Popeye to shame. At no time did either of my sons resemble me in any way, shape, form or fashion.

I resemble my father only superficially in the face, but otherwise, people say I'm his clone. He used to shoot his handguns one-handed, a la the old NRA style, was never much good at it and after he saw me pop an old-fashioned oil can 9 times from a range of 25 yards out to almost 70, he spat his tobacco juice out of his mouth and said, "Damn, boy, I didn't know you could do that!" One of the proudest moments of my entire life, believe me. I never saw him shoot a handgun after that, and this was 1984 or 1985. (I was shooting a home-made 1911 I'd built.)
The Merit Optical Disk is a mechanical aid for those who cannot adapt their position to overcome a physical shortcoming. This is a temporary fix for a problem, where LASIK is a permanent solution. The problem with a medical fix is over time our bodies change, so what was once good may not be later with age. I know many folks who chose to have their eyes done and swore by the results. Unfortunately there were consequences, and now their night vision is totally gone, or they see starbursts and rainbows surrounding bright lights. If I can correct mechanically, then I'm not going for the medical option, the procedures are too new and the long term side effects are not yet known.
I agree totally about the possible consequences, which is why my optometrist strongly suggested I wait a few years before I consider it for myself. Hell, I'm 48 now, and I only complain about shooting rifles with open sights. I have a Mauser K98 and an SAR-1 AK that don't have scopes, and I love them, but can't shoot them worth a darn past 50 yards. This explains why I love my WASR-10 AK with the scope and all my other scoped rifles.

Other than the long-term side-effects of Lasik you listed, the most common is the far-sightedness that often results after the surgery, even though it often doesn't occur for many years. I already need reading glasses, which is why I have bi-focals. My night vision is already shot, too, so I avoid night driving whenever possible, especially in unfamiliar areas.

This whole Lasik thing is a result of Soviet eye surgeons back in the 1960s, '70s and '80s. At least SOMETHING good came from those Commie rat-bastards!!! ;-)
One has to develop a postion and stick with it. Then refine it slowly and carefully. Don't keep searching for the magic cure because all you'll do is constantly change things and uncontrolled change is not conducive to good shooting performance.
Most people will develop what they think works, even if it doesn't, and then stick with it, no matter what. I think the reason my kids (including my daughter) and my wife worked so well was the fact that I was working with a "clean slate." There were no bad habits to overcome.

Connie was especially easy to teach. I've seen her use the "locked elbow" thing at very long range with her .22 revolver, but at closer ranges and with rapid firing, she bends the elbows, does the isometric thing, and shoots like a machine rest.

We hold bowling pin matches at a club I belong to, and last year, she won the Women's Championship for the season, and came in 3rd in the co-ed .22 matches (I came in 5th). We will shoot until October this year, and Connie is so far in front of the other women that she's nearly got this year's Championship locked up unless she just quits shooting. She's my prize student!!!!!!! Her reloading technique isn't pretty, but she usually doesn't have to hurry!

What I see more often than anything are people with techniques that simply don't work for them, they embed them into their minds and then refuse to change. Bad habits are hard to erase and perhaps the worst of them are flinching.

I see I've ranted too much, so I'll close. I do try to keep an open mind and I enjoy your exchanges with me. You seem to be a man with some experience, so I will look forward to any replies.

Regards,

Allen

greener

Post by greener » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:43 pm

I never shot with a two-hand grip and stance until a couple of trips to the range over the last two years. I always shot with a one hand. When I started to shoot more often this year, I was determined to learn to shoot with two hands and force myself not to shoot with a one-hand stance to "check" up on the pistol. (I do that with the .38 because I learned to shoot the pistol that way and am having a heck of a time forcing myself to shoot it with two hands).

The discussion is interesting because it gives me some things to think about.

Of course I could stay with the 5-10 yard targets and be very satisfied with the results, but there is something about doing it at 25 and 50 yards that is much more satisfying.

greener

Locked Elbow War Story

Post by greener » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:58 pm

I became a big fan of ensuring the shooting hand elbow is locked after an incident years ago in the Army Reserves. I belonged to a headquarters unit with lots of brass: colonels, half-colonels and majors vastly outnumbed the non-field grades. As a junior captain I was awarded the honor of running the pistol qualifications and range. All went well until a Colonel fired the first round with a very relaxed wrist and elbow, which went down range. The .45 kicked and the second round went 180 degrees from down range and put a hole in the tower I was in. He was firing the third round down range when a very excited young Captain closed the range and proceeded to throw a senior O6 off it with no little frank and open exchange of views on both sides.

greener

Post by greener » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:52 pm

I made a quick trip to the range today to test fire the Marlin 60 I have been playing with. Took my rimfire pistols and tried the NPA Bullseye described. Works better than described. It seems I habitually set up with the NPA to the right of the target. A little foot-shifting and by golly the pistol points at the target with no effort. Great tip.

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:35 am

greener wrote:I made a quick trip to the range today to test fire the Marlin 60 I have been playing with. Took my rimfire pistols and tried the NPA Bullseye described. Works better than described. It seems I habitually set up with the NPA to the right of the target. A little foot-shifting and by golly the pistol points at the target with no effort. Great tip.
This technique works for rifle shooting too. Your body has a natrual tendency to point, all your doing is taking advantage of this natural position. The less muscle you use in setting your postition, the steadier the hold. Bone support is much more solid of a support structure than muscle.

R,
Bullseye
Image

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:40 am

Allen,

I don't disagree with anything you've said. When I go to the range and work with folks who're trying to improve their technique, I try to help them find what works for them and help them refine it. It sounds to me like that's what you're doing too. Success fosters enjoyment, helping people enjoy shooting is what reinforces and refreshes this sport with new talent.

R,
Bullseye
Image

greener

Post by greener » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:11 pm

You guys have been a lot of help, at least in giving me some things to think about when I go out.

User avatar
Bud33
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:20 am
Location: Casselberry, FL

Post by Bud33 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:13 pm

This may be off topic slightly, but in line with performance, it has always been my belief that physical conditioning and mental preparation are equally important.
When I was at the top of my game, every spare minute went toward physical conditioning. Some of the things I concentrated on were;
1. I filled a .45 magazine with lead and used it while dry firing, which I did often.
2. I took a broom handle about 3 feet long, drilled a hole in the middle and attached a line to it. The other end of the line was tied to a 2 ltr soda bottle. The bottle was filled with water, to an appropriate weight. Now, holding the handle at arms length, one hand on each end and arms parallel to the floor, I wind the line around the handle lifting the bottle up to the handle. Then, I wind it down, slowly. Repeat as often as possible.
3. I take old newspapers and cut them into single sheets and then each sheet in half. I stack a pile of these sheets next to my chair, where I sit while watching TV. With my shooting hand, I grasp a half sheet and wad it up into a tight little ball. Does wonders for the grip!

These things plus standard physical conditioning were crucial to maintain a steady hold.

One other thing. Nicotine and caffeine are a NO NO!
Bud

Beware the man who only has one gun.
HE PROBABLY KNOWS HOW TO USE IT!!!

greener

Post by greener » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:55 pm

No caffiene? You mean I'd shoot better in the midst of serious withdrawal? LOL.

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:05 am

I couldn't agree with you more Bud! In one of these posts I described how to make a home-made wrist roller for that same reason. Physical conditioning is very important for improving stamina and performance. I had to do some searching but here's the thread on making a wrist roller Excercises

And NO CAFFINE! Makes you all twitchy. The good news is; if you drink caffinated beverages, the caffine leaves your system in about 12 hours. So, none the night before and you'll be good to go in the morning! The problem is that caffine can be stored in your body's fat reserves. So, if your shooting for several days, eat properly and try to keep from having caffine withdrawls. If your a heavy caffine user, you can help reduce this condition by having one beverage at night outside the 12 hour window and you'll be fine the next day. Otherwise you might suffer from caffine withdrawl headaches. No asprin, heavy doses of caffine in them.

R,
Bulllseye
Image

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:30 pm

Another great way to improve stance and performance is to invest in a quality air gun. Shooting air pistol or dry firing can have a significant impact on your hold and shot follow-through. A good quality air gun like the Beeman P-1 can simulate shooting live ammunition in the confines of your basement or garage.

Image

It’s far less expensive to shoot pellets than regular ammo. And needless to say, the neighbors will be much happier if you’re not blasting away in the back yard. Just the savings in gasoline alone to-and-from the range will make-up for the cost of the air pistol in no time.

All you need besides the air pistol is a good .22 caliber bullet trap and some space. The bullet trap provides a safe and sturdy back drop for shooting bullseye targets and preventing ricochets. There’s plenty of 10 meter or 25 foot reduced targets available at local sporting goods stores to post up in the trap and start practicing

The more you practice sight alignment and trigger control the steadier your hold gets and the smaller your groups will shrink.

Happy shooting.

R,
Bullseye
Image

perazzi
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 360
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:49 pm
Location: Hell, Michigan!

Stance

Post by perazzi » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:53 pm

Ok, working on stance and position.

I'm left handed. My body is turned 20-30* from a parallel line with the target.

Am I on the right path??

Image
Image

User avatar
Bullseye
Site Admin/Host
Site Admin/Host
Posts: 6382
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:23 pm
Location: USA

Post by Bullseye » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:48 am

The recommended body-to-target positioning is feet angled 45° relative to the target but that is just a recommendation. Everyone has slightly different body features and your natural positioning is one where you can close your eyes, relax your trunk muscles, and open them again and see your pistol centered on target. If you are not centered then shift one of your feet slightly and try the sequence again. Do this until you can open your eyes and the pistol is on target - that is your natural point of aim NPA. Your feet may be at a different place than the optimum recommended angle.

Once you find the NPA, don't move your feet around. I've even seen folk use white chalk to mark around their feet on the cement floor to assist with keeping their NPA position. Between each string, during the prep period, re verify your NPA with the eye closing method. This is often necessary as typically one has to leave their position to score targets in between strings. Which is why you see the chalk outline footprints.

R,
Bullseye
Image

User avatar
Hardball
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:37 am
Location: Oregon

Post by Hardball » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:33 am

Bullseye wrote:The recommended body-to-target positioning is feet angled 45° relative to the target but that is just a recommendation. Everyone has slightly different body features and your natural positioning is one where you can close your eyes, relax your trunk muscles, and open them again and see your pistol with sights aligned on your seeing line and
centered on targets aim area. If you are not centered then shift one of your feet slightly and try the sequence again. Do this until you can open your eyes and the pistol is sights aligned on target - that is your natural point of aim NPA. Your feet may be at a different place than the optimum recommended angle.

Once you find the NPA, don't move your feet around. I've even seen folk use white chalk to mark around their feet on the cement floor to assist with keeping their NPA position. Between each string, during the prep period, re verify your NPA with the eye closing method. This is often necessary as typically one has to leave their position to score targets in between strings. Which is why you see the chalk outline footprints.

R,
Bullseye
Hardball

Post Reply