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Post by Bullseye » Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:15 am

Are you shooting a reduced center for the SF Prone? What distance?

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Post by Hakaman » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:25 pm

Bullseye wrote:Are you shooting a reduced center for the SF Prone? What distance?

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We use the reduced center, 600yd simulated, for SF Prone, all segments shot at 200yds actual. For the most of my shots, I can tell a bad shot when I shoot. I use http://www.earplugstore.com/earclassicsoftearplugs.html
I might flinch sometimes? This is a challenging sport to take on when you are past your prime and the eyes are getting older, but staying relaxed and have fun seem to promote better scores. One thing I have noticed with SF Prone is the lack of 'smoothness' transitioning from pulling the trigger, reloading, getting back into position, and shooting the next shot. I always seem to go through too much 'repositioning' to get back to my POA. I have proven I can shoot pretty good during the RF Prone largely because I don't have to move, just aim and fire.

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Post by Bullseye » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:48 pm

First off those 200 yard simulated 600 SF target centers are tough. If you're not getting great accuracy out of your rifle then you are chasing a phantom. I'll assume you are getting good accuracy, and your fundamentals are solid and go from there.

Second your position, you must anchor the left elbow to the mat for good position. This means not moving the elbow when reloading or scoping the hole. Unfortunately I can't recall if you have said if these are stationary targets or ones that have a puller/scorer in the pits. Trying to scope .22 caliber holes on a stationary target and then resuming is also a tough way to go and will definitely affect you mentally, especially as the target fills up with holes. If you have a scorer/pit puller it is a lot easier to plot the individual shots and stay focused with marksmanship fundamentals. Many times I see folks squirming around on their mats, breaking their position. I don't even pull my rifle but out of my shoulder between shots to hold the position. That means placing your scope in a position where you can just slightly turn your head to spot rounds. What kind of optics are you using for a spotting scope? Reloading each shot was much easier with the M-14/M-1 than with the AR. You really have to reach through the carrying handle with your shooting hand to activate the bolt release with the AR. Hopefully you're using a single loading device like the Bob SLED for your AR. If you're getting frustrated at all your heart rate will elevate and just that is enough to cause even more difficulty on the little SF reduced targets.

Do you have anyone at these matches who can act as a coach? A skilled coach can spot problems and offer suggestions as remedies when you need them. Right now all I can do is talk in generalities based on your feedback and go from there.

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Post by Hakaman » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:46 pm

I feel I'm getting good accuracy, I shot about an 1" at 100 yards with a scope.

I know I'm moving off my left elbow way too much while trying to get a look through my spotting scope and loading the next round. I use the clubs scope, but the base is wobbly and doesn't support steadily. Plus the type of base is not condusive for easy access. I would like to know what brand/type you recommend for a scope base, as I'm guessing a solid base is more important then expensive optics. I see the other guys have better technique than I do for positioning the scope for easy access. I am going to try to copy their way. I have been shooting 5 shots, then taking a peek through the scope, but breaking my position each time I look. I have to admit, I'm a squirmer. I'm going to try to hold my position, position my scope in an optimum spot, keep my left elbow, and buttstock, in position w/o moving it, and reaching throw the handle to the bolt release. I am using a 20rd sized bobsled for slow fire rounds. One thing I do notice distinctly is the elevated heart rate while in position. That bugs me, and probably doesn't help my score. I have wondered about how people learn th discipline of service rifle shooting, and how they were coached. Right now, I just get a tip here or there from various people and try to make ends meet. I talk with the other shooters, but have never had a coach. These are stationary targets at 200yds. I know it's difficult, online, to answer all questions I have, but I appreciate what you have given so far.
Thanks, Haka

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Post by Bullseye » Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:22 pm

You need a good scope and stand. I use an old Freeland bipod stand that I've had forever. There are lots of brands out there to choose from, Giraurd, Ray-Vin, freeland, etc. Look around and find one you like Jim Owens sells one you may like, and the price is right- http://www.jarheadtop.com/Stand_Pictures.htm His Konus scopes should work well for you too.

I've got to say shooting and not scoping each shot can also add some excitement. I'll bet you spend a lot of time trying to sort out where each shot went, tough enough one at a time let alone trying to sort out the location of five. You peek through the scope by just moving your head, not your whole body. Having a scope with a 45° long eye relief eye piece is also a lot of help. Since you are borrowing club equipment you don't have the luxury of being choosy but you have to minimize your movement on the mat. Plenty of times when I'm prone my left arm will start to go numb by the time I'm done firing 20 shots, 22 with sighters. You have to keep that left elbow anchored and the left side of your body in contact with the mat. By rotating your body slightly so only one side of your chest touches the mat you keep less of your heart and lung operation from interfering with your position. This means using a high placement with your right knee on the mat to help rotate your trunk up off the mat. Only one side of your chest touches the mat. You want that sling adjusted tight enough so when you relax all muscle control in the left arm, and hand, the sling totally supports the rifle on target and its aligned with the aiming black. You don't move the rifle, you adjust your body's position to make that rifle take the position you want for aiming. This way when you relax, and you concentrate on your sight picture and trigger control, you're not fighting muscle fatigue to control the weapon. Once you start to concentrate your muscles should be relaxed, this will give you your natural point of aim (NPA) which is so critical in high power rifle shooting competition. If you're not working on these things then this is your next step toward consistency you need for better performance.

It's OK. I can coach from afar, but I have to have total honesty in what you're seeing and feeling in order to be helpful to you. I'm not suggesting that you are not being up front but sometimes folks leave things out at times.

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Post by Hakaman » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:49 pm

Thanks for the good tips BE, I will put them to use. I know I have jumping around too much and moving out of position on SF Prone, and will try some of the techniques you suggested. Keeping left elbow in place, reaching through the carry handle, and rotating to one side. I will also position the scope in a more useful spot so as to not move out of position. I will practice these in the basement to get adjusted right. The temp here in michigan has been brutal lately and the forecat is getting hotter (97 deg this week). I probably won't get out til saturday morning. As far as a scope, I have been wanting to get a set up for a while now but it's a challenge on the internet. I like the Jim Owens deal on scopes and stands. I think the Konus is good enough for me. That's the scope the club has but the stand is heavy and unstable as it gets used often. Have to think about the scope issue to make sure.
Thanks again, I'll let you know the results are, hopefully better. In the meantime, I'll have fun,
Haka

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Post by Hakaman » Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Anybody care to opinionate on this wisdom? (btw, I do have the lead weight in the buttstock of my rifle, heavy)
Weight of Rifle:
For the finest offhand shooting the rifle must be muzzle heavy. This is not, as most shooters suppose, wholly in the weight of the rifle, but is in the disposition of the weight. As much as possible should be in the barrel. Weight in the stock and butt plate is useless except in absorbing the recoil. The use of a heavy butt plate is to be condemned. While it tends to balance the rifle when the same is carried free, its weight is entirely on the right shoulder in shooting and does not in any way change the weight supported on the left hand. In fact, the rifle at the shoulder is a second‑class lever in which the power is the weight of the rifle concentrated at its center of gravity, which should be well beyond the left hand. The fulcrum is the shoulder, and the work is the weight held in the left hand. If the center of gravity is in front of the left hand, then the weight held in the left hand is greater than the rifle. If the center of gravity is behind the left hand, the weight will be less than that of the rifle.

It is necessary to hold a reasonable amount of weight on the left hand in order that the swing of the rifle may be slow and give one time to pull. If the weight resting on the left hand be the same, no matter what the actual weight of the rifle itself, the effort to move it will be the same. It is possible to build a rifle to weigh 12 or 20 pounds and have it hold exactly the same. In other words, except to absorb recoil, the shooting weight of a rifle is not how heavy the rifle actually is but how that weight is distributed. Anyone can prove these facts for themselves, as I have done for many years for my customers, by simply holding the rifle by the butt plate so it will not overturn on a small platform scale, first weighing the rifle itself, then by supporting it at various places to see what the left hand actually holds, and not forgetting before you finish to tic a couple of points or so onto the butt plate in order to convince yourself that has absolutely no effect on the weight held in the left hand, and therefore has no effect on the shooting balance of the rifle and no influence in slow­ing the movement of the muzzle in aiming.

http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_7-1_HowToShootOffhand.htm

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Post by Bullseye » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:47 pm

Essentially what is being said is a muzzle heavy rifle tends to balance better and oscillates less in off hand shooting. My match AR's weigh better than 15 lbs each and have the weights distributed in both in the forestock and the buttstock. When I first started experimenting with AR's, in the early 1990's, I found that the lighter, unweighted rifle, tended to be greatly affected by gusting wind. Even in the prone position a strong gust of wind would tend to blow the muzzle completely off the target face. By placing extra weights in the forestock I was able to gain much greater control over the rifle's muzzle in high wind conditions, and the extra weight up front also provided a much improved stabilization of the rifle in the other positions.

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Post by Hakaman » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:28 pm

OH = 80
RFS = 95-4x (very happy)
RFP = 90 (not real satisfied, it is below my years avg)
SFP = 166 (low score, nice group for bulk of shots, but had 1 shot miss scoring. Disappointed. The lighting, at this part of the evening is in the face of the shooter, but the target is not in the suns illumination due to the burm. I feel I can score good if I can see the target well enough, but the target sort of 'greyed out', blending the black and white due to the sun's positon)

Service rifle league today, I shot some good and not so good scores. I am feeling more comfortable on OH, and am dry firing often. Tonight I had an 80, and my goal is to reach 80, at least, so I hit the lower limit. I had good elevation on my shots, but windage was off. One of these days I'll put it all together. I have tried some of the tips this forum has offered, like scope position, loading, and reaching the bolt release through the handle, and it helps. I am going to shoot again either this week Fri morn or Sat morn, lighting very good, so we'll see.
Thanks, Haka

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Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:54 pm

When you get into a low light or foggy situation, and the aiming black is not very clear on the target, most folks will switch over to a frame hold. The frame hold means you just use the whole target frame as your aiming point and then you must adjust an increase the rifle's rear elevation to compensate for the lowered front sight point of aim. Looking into my rifle data log books, I would start with 6 minutes of additional elevation, depending on the size of your frames and how well the centers are pasted upon them. You may have to adjust a little differently on how much elevation you need, each range has its own peculiarities as far as shooters positioning relative to the target, to hit in the center of the slow fire reduced target center. You should also keep a log book to have your sight data recorded for future uses. Then just place the whole frame on top of your front sight post and you should be hitting in the center with the white target backer as the aiming point and visual reference.

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P.S. Here is another web reference for your research on high power shooting positions- http://www.sawgrassrifle.org/introToHighPower.aspx
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Post by Hakaman » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:20 pm

Thanks Bullseye, I'll try that. I really didn't get too discouraged with the 'off'
shots because I figured you can't hit what you can't see. But with the technique
you are talking about, I will get a better chance. I'll have to experiment with
my target stands and see how many clicks I need.
Thanks again,
Haka

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Post by Bullseye » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:28 pm

It's the little things like these that a shooting mentor (coach) can explain to you when you're out on the range. Generally it is more helpful when the things you're experiencing are fresh on your mind.

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Post by Hakaman » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:34 pm

Bullseye wrote:It's the little things like these that a shooting mentor (coach) can explain to you when you're out on the range. Generally it is more helpful when the things you're experiencing are fresh on your mind.
R,
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I went out with a little confidence this yesterday, and nothing
seemed to go well. I need to do more dry firing, and preparation for
other positions. Too embarrassed to post the score, but not much worked.
I think I'm going to wait til the weather gets a little cooler, it seems more like work than enjoyment.
On sitting RF the front sight was bouncing up and down due to my heart beat. That's the first time I have
experienced this so pronounced. Maybe my position was off?
Feeling a little discouraged,
Haka

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Post by Bullseye » Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:30 pm

It could be that your position was off, or your pants and belt were still fastened. In sitting, it is best to unfasten the top of the pants and loosen the belt to alleviate any heartbeat from your trunk. A restriction around your mid-section will cause your body to bounce from your aorta.

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Post by Hakaman » Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:13 pm

Bullseye wrote:It could be that your position was off, or your pants and belt were still fastened. In sitting, it is best to unfasten the top of the pants and loosen the belt to alleviate any heartbeat from your trunk. A restriction around your mid-section will cause your body to bounce from your aorta.

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Bullseye
Interesting you mentioned this, cause I was thinking the same thing. When I got dressed I remember tightening up the belt an extra notch. Live and learn I guess, but next round I'll be sure to take the tension of the mid section. In retrospect, it was amazing how much the front sight was bouncing. Also amazing are all the little, but important, tricks of this trade involved. I do think I am going into the dry firing/practice mode down stairs until the heat calms down. It's just too hot to enjoy the game.
Thanks, Haka

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