Thanks, the bushing wear does look similar.
I took the pistol to the range yesterday, ran 60 rounds through it and payed close attention to the bushing after each shot. On the first shot it moved up just a tad bit but after that my eyes told me it stayed in the same place, so I'm not really worried about it anymore, however I did think of a couple more questions to ask:
Do you think the bushing favoring the left side will tend to make the pistol shoot towards the right on the long line? Lastly if some how I managed to wear out the rifling on the barrel would the way the bushing fits on create a big problem for another smith to fit a new barrel for it?
1911 newb with questions!
Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators
No. The sights are already adjusted to compensate for any angular barrel-slide offset. You adjusted them yourself during your shooting practice to place the impact at the point of aim. Some factories or custom smiths will bore sight-in a pistol during test firing. This is one reason why some pistols will arrive new with the rear sight mounted off to one side of the dovetail slot instead of being centered.Georgezilla wrote:Thanks, the bushing wear does look similar.
Do you think the bushing favoring the left side will tend to make the pistol shoot towards the right on the long line?
Wearing out the rifling would be quite a feat. I have 100,000 + rounds through my hardball gun and I still haven't worn out the 25 year old Wilson match barrel. At one time, I used to shoot over 5K of hardball a month. Pretty easy to do when Uncle Sweetheart was buying the ammo. But if you did have to replace the barrel, then your new one would come with a new bushing that would also need fitting with the barrel and the slide.Georgezilla wrote:Lastly if some how I managed to wear out the rifling on the barrel would the way the bushing fits on create a big problem for another smith to fit a new barrel for it?
No special fitting went into your barrel and bushing. Everything was fitted by Baer according to normal match specifications. The slight bushing offset is being compensated by the iron sight's relative orientation. That offset is very minor. If you later decided to have a red dot sight mounted on the slide, I doubt that minor of an offset would even require any shimming of the mounts.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
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Georgezilla
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Now that you mention it the rear sight is just a tad offset.
5k of hardball a month is amazing. The first day I took this pistol to the range I decided to only fire it one handed, that was a first with a 1911 (or any big bore). After 150 rounds my lower forearm started to get a bit sore. Hasn't happened since but just knowing that 150 did makes me amazed that you went through 5k a month
A couple months ago I went through 3k of .22 the month before a match and I thought that was a lot 
I was aware that the bushing would have to be replaced and fitted to the slide and barrel. I was wondering if the new bushing would have to sit on the slide in the same manner, and if so would that be a problem for different smith to do. 100,000k is A LOT though and you're distinguished, so if you haven't had to change your ball pistols barrel I think it's a moot point.
As always I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me and easing my concerns, thank you very much
5k of hardball a month is amazing. The first day I took this pistol to the range I decided to only fire it one handed, that was a first with a 1911 (or any big bore). After 150 rounds my lower forearm started to get a bit sore. Hasn't happened since but just knowing that 150 did makes me amazed that you went through 5k a month
A couple months ago I went through 3k of .22 the month before a match and I thought that was a lot I was aware that the bushing would have to be replaced and fitted to the slide and barrel. I was wondering if the new bushing would have to sit on the slide in the same manner, and if so would that be a problem for different smith to do. 100,000k is A LOT though and you're distinguished, so if you haven't had to change your ball pistols barrel I think it's a moot point.
As always I really appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me and easing my concerns, thank you very much
I was a young man back then, I cannot do that much shooting today. 5K sounds like a lot but 2-300 rounds per session for 5-6 days a week adds up. I've had my share of tendinitis in the right elbow from shooting. I found that exercise and conditioning helped keep that down, especially lots of swimming.
That offset doesn't appear to be a bushing condition. I don't have your slide here but it appears to me like the barrel channel is bored off to one side by a few thousandths. You could remove the bushing and mic it with a caliper and see if the hole is equal distant on each side of the slide. I suspect it's not. But there's really not that much difference between the widths. A new bushing would sit identically in that slide. Fitting it wouldn't be any more difficult than any other match grade bushing.
R,
Bullseye
That offset doesn't appear to be a bushing condition. I don't have your slide here but it appears to me like the barrel channel is bored off to one side by a few thousandths. You could remove the bushing and mic it with a caliper and see if the hole is equal distant on each side of the slide. I suspect it's not. But there's really not that much difference between the widths. A new bushing would sit identically in that slide. Fitting it wouldn't be any more difficult than any other match grade bushing.
R,
Bullseye
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Georgezilla
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Georgezilla
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George,
Now for the really interesting numbers. I plugged in your measurement values and ran a little algebra on the .004" barrel offset. At 25 yards that much of a shift equals .8" left deflection. At 50 yards, it equals 1.6" left deflection. Both of these are not earth shattering amounts and six or seven clicks of windage on the rear sight should compensate for the difference. Basically that works out to be nearly 3 minutes of left error. Your rear sights are 1/2 min per click so that's where I came up with the windage compensation amounts. That is for a normal rear sight centered in the dovetail slot. But you've already said that your rear sight is slightly off center, so you shouldn't have to add any sight corrections to center up your shots.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
Now for the really interesting numbers. I plugged in your measurement values and ran a little algebra on the .004" barrel offset. At 25 yards that much of a shift equals .8" left deflection. At 50 yards, it equals 1.6" left deflection. Both of these are not earth shattering amounts and six or seven clicks of windage on the rear sight should compensate for the difference. Basically that works out to be nearly 3 minutes of left error. Your rear sights are 1/2 min per click so that's where I came up with the windage compensation amounts. That is for a normal rear sight centered in the dovetail slot. But you've already said that your rear sight is slightly off center, so you shouldn't have to add any sight corrections to center up your shots.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
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Georgezilla
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Thanks for doing that for me.
Now that we know (thanks to you) whats causing the bushing to favor one side, would the parts wear into each other well? or would this issue cause them to loosen up too much, cause the zero to rapidly change or what have you? and I'm talking if I used the hell out of it like you have yours.
It cost a chunk of change so if you think any issues will result from this down the road I'll want to see what Baer can do for me.
Now that we know (thanks to you) whats causing the bushing to favor one side, would the parts wear into each other well? or would this issue cause them to loosen up too much, cause the zero to rapidly change or what have you? and I'm talking if I used the hell out of it like you have yours.
It cost a chunk of change so if you think any issues will result from this down the road I'll want to see what Baer can do for me.
That offset is so minor that I don't anticipate any unusual wear patterns, or early lock up problems from it. This is a case of it looks worse than it is. You're just being ultra sensitive and scrutinizing every detail - not that that's a bad thing but you have to pull back a bit and let it show you what it can do. You've already seen that it groups well downrange.
Your pistol is well constructed and everything is mated properly, which means the parts will wear together just fine. As long as you keep it lubed and maintain it properly, your pistol should last for a lifetime of use. I understand your concerns and the significant investment you've placed in a quality pistol. Rest easy because you got one in that LB Hardball pistol. There still may be a hiccup or two before the break-in period expires but that is all normal too.
My personal ball gun had growing pains during the break-in period. Initially it had some hammer following issues but the trigger pull remained consistent at 4.25 lbs, and eventually that problem solved itself. Back then, I didn't build 1911 match pistols, I just shot them. That pistol was one of the first Series 80's Colts and not many pistolsmiths had experience with making the trigger safety parts work well with a crisp let-off.
It also had a bad habit of throwing front sights. My front sight was very tall. Basically it was the tallest squared post replacement with the front corner rounded off. A real shark fin! After about 2,500 rounds, that sight tenon just couldn't support that much mass under the stressful forces of hardball recoil. Believe me, there's nothing worse than having a front sight fly south in the middle of a match. It's a little challenging to hit the target consistently by sighting down the flat side of the slide in the middle of a sustained fire string. We even tried silver soldering it in place but that lasted only about 5K before it took off too. Eventually I had the rear sight low mounted and added in a new dovetailed front sight. I haven't lost that one yet but I don't expect to either.
I've had to replace a few other minor parts, as one would expect in a pistol with that high of mileage. But a spring here, extractor there is no big deal. I never lost my lock-up which is the heart of a match pistol. As you can see, that pistol had served me well and I've gotten a lot of use on it over the years.
The moral to this story is - you will too with your Baer Match Hardball. It's just hard to see that far out in the future. Your confidence will build in that pistol once you get some matches under your belt.
Got out and shoot it and get familiar with your iron.
R,
Bullseye
Your pistol is well constructed and everything is mated properly, which means the parts will wear together just fine. As long as you keep it lubed and maintain it properly, your pistol should last for a lifetime of use. I understand your concerns and the significant investment you've placed in a quality pistol. Rest easy because you got one in that LB Hardball pistol. There still may be a hiccup or two before the break-in period expires but that is all normal too.
My personal ball gun had growing pains during the break-in period. Initially it had some hammer following issues but the trigger pull remained consistent at 4.25 lbs, and eventually that problem solved itself. Back then, I didn't build 1911 match pistols, I just shot them. That pistol was one of the first Series 80's Colts and not many pistolsmiths had experience with making the trigger safety parts work well with a crisp let-off.
It also had a bad habit of throwing front sights. My front sight was very tall. Basically it was the tallest squared post replacement with the front corner rounded off. A real shark fin! After about 2,500 rounds, that sight tenon just couldn't support that much mass under the stressful forces of hardball recoil. Believe me, there's nothing worse than having a front sight fly south in the middle of a match. It's a little challenging to hit the target consistently by sighting down the flat side of the slide in the middle of a sustained fire string. We even tried silver soldering it in place but that lasted only about 5K before it took off too. Eventually I had the rear sight low mounted and added in a new dovetailed front sight. I haven't lost that one yet but I don't expect to either.
I've had to replace a few other minor parts, as one would expect in a pistol with that high of mileage. But a spring here, extractor there is no big deal. I never lost my lock-up which is the heart of a match pistol. As you can see, that pistol had served me well and I've gotten a lot of use on it over the years.
The moral to this story is - you will too with your Baer Match Hardball. It's just hard to see that far out in the future. Your confidence will build in that pistol once you get some matches under your belt.
Got out and shoot it and get familiar with your iron.
R,
Bullseye
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Georgezilla
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How right you are. I am OCD sometimes, that I will promise anyone. Im not going to worry about it anymore.
I think I am being over critical because I waited so long for one and I expected it to be perfect in every way, I just need to get off that mind set.
I will now take your advice though and get to know my iron
Right now I need all the help I can get while shooting one handed.
Thank you again for charing your experience.
I think I am being over critical because I waited so long for one and I expected it to be perfect in every way, I just need to get off that mind set.
I will now take your advice though and get to know my iron
Right now I need all the help I can get while shooting one handed. Thank you again for charing your experience.
Your feelings are all perfectly normal. You paid good money, waited a long time for it in anticipation, and want reassurance that it was all worth while. All normal, not OCD at all. You're just a concerned consumer.
I'll tell you something that my earliest shooting mentor told me, "Once you get comfortable shooting one handed, you'll never be comfortable shooting with two hands again." No spoken words were ever more true. I must have looked at him back then in total disbelief, like he had two heads. But to this day, it feels very awkward for me to use two hands with a pistol. I also used to shoot PPC competitively and I could aways shoot better with one rather than two hands. Used to drive all the other competitors nuts, because I was a bullseye shooter and I was kicking all their butts using one hand and fixed iron sights on a stock, service grade, 1911. Let me tell you, some of those folks had big money tied up in their equipment, but it's more form than equipment that wins the day.
Practice dry firing. Put up a little dry fire target and use it. Practice squeezing the trigger and not allowing the sights to move when the hammer falls. Each hammer drop should be instinctive, not anticipatory. Once you master the trigger control you'll find your center in one handed competitive shooting. No matter how steady your hold, it all goes away if you cannot work the trigger flawlessly!
R,
Bullseye
I'll tell you something that my earliest shooting mentor told me, "Once you get comfortable shooting one handed, you'll never be comfortable shooting with two hands again." No spoken words were ever more true. I must have looked at him back then in total disbelief, like he had two heads. But to this day, it feels very awkward for me to use two hands with a pistol. I also used to shoot PPC competitively and I could aways shoot better with one rather than two hands. Used to drive all the other competitors nuts, because I was a bullseye shooter and I was kicking all their butts using one hand and fixed iron sights on a stock, service grade, 1911. Let me tell you, some of those folks had big money tied up in their equipment, but it's more form than equipment that wins the day.
Practice dry firing. Put up a little dry fire target and use it. Practice squeezing the trigger and not allowing the sights to move when the hammer falls. Each hammer drop should be instinctive, not anticipatory. Once you master the trigger control you'll find your center in one handed competitive shooting. No matter how steady your hold, it all goes away if you cannot work the trigger flawlessly!
R,
Bullseye
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Georgezilla
- Master contributor
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:35 pm
I've read that about one handed shooting a few times. I think it was you who wrote "If pistols were made to be shot with two hands they would have two handles!", that made me laugh.
A las I am very unfortunate that there is no one to mentor me at the ranges I go to thus far. In regard to this sport that is the one bad thing about Texas, most everyone here is into action shooting. I am not sure if you are familiar with Ted Bonnet but he goes to one of the ranges I frequent, an amazing action shooter as his track record would show, very helpful too. I just wish I could find someone like him except focused on bullseye style. It's funny that you would mention the cost of the PPC shooters equipment because that is one of the reasons I picked bullseye style. The cost of those pistols makes my investment seem like I am cheap and don't really have the desire to progress in the sport
Controlling that 4lb pull one handed seems to be a totally different animal for me than two handed. I seem to have good stamina holding the sight picture, but as you said it can all go out the window without a flawless pull.
Now for the on topic question: When putting the bushing back on a 1911 with this condition should I be worried about forcing it too hard? Before I knew why the bushing had that tilt I pushed it down until it looked flush once, should I avoid that in the future?
A las I am very unfortunate that there is no one to mentor me at the ranges I go to thus far. In regard to this sport that is the one bad thing about Texas, most everyone here is into action shooting. I am not sure if you are familiar with Ted Bonnet but he goes to one of the ranges I frequent, an amazing action shooter as his track record would show, very helpful too. I just wish I could find someone like him except focused on bullseye style. It's funny that you would mention the cost of the PPC shooters equipment because that is one of the reasons I picked bullseye style. The cost of those pistols makes my investment seem like I am cheap and don't really have the desire to progress in the sport
Controlling that 4lb pull one handed seems to be a totally different animal for me than two handed. I seem to have good stamina holding the sight picture, but as you said it can all go out the window without a flawless pull.
Now for the on topic question: When putting the bushing back on a 1911 with this condition should I be worried about forcing it too hard? Before I knew why the bushing had that tilt I pushed it down until it looked flush once, should I avoid that in the future?
Try putting a little oil on the bushing skirt before installing. Then I use the wrench and twist back and forth with my right hand while pressing down on the bushing with my left thumb. This movement will seat the bushing. Force isn't bad, as long as you're not hitting the bushing with anything to seat it. Since it is tight you'll need some force to get it seated.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
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greener
A very informative dialog, even for those of us who don't have match grade 1911's. Thanks, guys.
I enjoyed the discussion on one-hand versus two-hand shooting. Until I started shooting regularly again a couple of years ago, I had never shot anything two-handed and decided I'd learn how to do it. Every time I'd get frustrated with two hands, I'd revert to one hand until I decided to shoot nothing but two hands until I got it down (well, as "down" as I'm ever going to get it.) For me, learning a new technique was total immersion. The downside is now I need loads of practice with one hand.
I enjoyed the discussion on one-hand versus two-hand shooting. Until I started shooting regularly again a couple of years ago, I had never shot anything two-handed and decided I'd learn how to do it. Every time I'd get frustrated with two hands, I'd revert to one hand until I decided to shoot nothing but two hands until I got it down (well, as "down" as I'm ever going to get it.) For me, learning a new technique was total immersion. The downside is now I need loads of practice with one hand.