7 (+1)

[teejay]

Through the years I've commonly seen the capacity of the 1911 as 7 (+1).
I have often left one in the chamber with a full mag, hammer down. All that is needed is to cock the hammer and off she goes. Is this practice regarded as "safe"? Cocked and locked with the hammer safety on is too scary for me. Since it has an inertia firing pin, I don't see it going off without an intentional full hammer strike, like a SA revolver. How do most of you have yours? I don't carry it this way, I have it in this configuration for my home. Opinions? TJ

[perazzi]

My limited opinion of the 1911 is the safety issue of manually dropping the hammer on a live chambered round. after that, it would seem safe enough.

I think most designed for that have "decockers" or are DAO striker fired mechanisms....

[bigfatdave]

Search gun forums for the phrases "condition 1" and "cocked and locked" ... there is an endless debate of the intended method to carry a 1911, and JMB built the things to multiple specifications anyway, so there are actually a number of ways to carry safely. They all have different advantages and disadvantages, so you have to ask yourself if you might ever NEED that gun in a hurry. Remember that the .mil method of carry has little bearing on civilian/citizen self-defense, because you are all alone out there and your handgun is your primary weapon, not a backup to a rifle.

That said, hammer-down is an awkward thing to fix on the draw, lowering the hammer is an un-needed risk, re-cocking the hammer is an un-needed risk, and a mechanical failure causing a hammer drop will be caught by the intercept notch, the FP disconnect (on newer models), AND the grip interlock.

I carry C&L when I carry my new 1911, because even with my monster hands I can't rapidly or safely cock the hammer on the draw, and unless you have no beavertail I'd bet you can't really do so either (if stress, sweaty hands, and an adrenaline dump are factored in).

Do what I do with potential carry pistols, put a snap-cap into an unloaded gun*, engage the safety, holster it as sloppily as possible, abuse the holster and TRY to induce a hammer drop or disengaged safety.
If you can do it, you have a crap holster and/or malfunctioning gun. (or possibly you are carrying an ambi safety gun that is actually a liability with some carry methods, get a holster with a safety-locking button if you must have an ambi safety)
For that matter, with a functioning grip interlock and a quality holster, you shouldn't need to apply the safety**.


* (triple check, get someone to dummy check you etc etc)
** (but you should anyway, the light SA trigger makes the manual safety a good idea for drop-safe considerations as much as anything)

[bigfatdave]

I have often left one in the chamber with a full mag, hammer down. All that is needed is to cock the hammer and off she goes.

All you have to do is slip while lowering the hammer and "off she goes".
All you have to do is flinch while re-cocking under stress (possibluy while fighting for your life) and "off she goes".

...
...

Of course, if you don't carry, leave it in your nightstand however the heck you want

[Downeaster]

Of all the ways to carry a 1911, hammer down on a loaded chamber is the least desirable IMHO.

It has neither the speed of Cocked and Locked (Condition 1) nor the safety of a hammer down on an empty chamber (Condition 3).

Any 1911 in good condition can be safely carried Condition 1 in a suitable holster. If you're carrying for Self Defense, it's the only one that makes sense to me.

[bearandoldman]

Cocked and locked and ready to rock is the only way to go in my opinion. Hammer down on a loaded chamber, is kind of risky if you slip and it goes off or if it does not get fully cocked and the GB gets you, Empty chamber, sometimes called the Israeli quick draw, turns a handgun into a HANDSGUN, what if the other hand is disabled, where are you,?

[bigfatdave]

Empty chamber, sometimes called the Israeli quick draw, turns a handgun into a HANDSGUN, what if the other hand is disabled, where are you,?

I've been sneering at empty-chamber for defensive handguns for a while now. Another questionable practice wrongly adapted from a military policy.

Interesting origin on the "Israeli Draw" ... when Israel was a new nation they had a hodgepodge of handguns being "issued" and another hodgepodge of police/military backgrounds in their armed populace.
So, in what was a wise choice at the time for that hardware collection and that personnel mix ... the policy of "safety off, chamber empty, mag full" was applied across the board, because it worked with guns; that weren't drop-safe, might or might not have a safety, might or might not be in a custom holster, and might or might not be carried by an expert.

It has little application to people who can pick their own guns/holsters/carry locations. And it has even less application to citizens without backup on the way or a partner at their side ... no matter how fast you might be, it ain't as fast as a practiced draw & presentation.

To anyone who wanders through advocating "Israeli quick draw":
-1- can you do it one-handed reliably?
-2- wouldn't having a snap-cap in the mag as your first round be twice as safe?

[bearandoldman]

Empty chamber, sometimes called the Israeli quick draw, turns a handgun into a HANDSGUN, what if the other hand is disabled, where are you,?

To anyone who wanders through advocating "Israeli quick draw":
-1- can you do it one-handed reliably?
-2- wouldn't having a snap-cap in the mag as your first round be twice as safe?

Twice as safe for who? the bad guy, let him take his chances, Yes, many years ago in one of n=my SD classes I did learn how to drop a mag, reload and rack the slide one handed, not the easiest thing to do but it can be done.

[blue68f100]

The only way to carry is one in the pipe. If SA, hammer cocked and locked (condition 1). If DA you use the de-cocker to lower the hammer. It's the only safe way to lower the hammer. If you do not like Condition 1, time to move to a DA gun. Now there is a safety system (SKF) that lower the hammer on a SA guns. When you take the gun off safety it re-cocks the gun. When I carry my BHP it's in condition 1.

My P229 is a DA/SA so it works just like a revolver on the first shot. I just like the idea of not having to mess with a safety during a highly stressed condition.

If you carry fractions of second makes a difference. The less things you have to do the better.

If you do not carry one chambered you are at a great disadvantage. The bad guy already has his loaded and ready to fire.

The only safe way lower a hammer on a SA gun is to remove the magazine and clear the chamber, then drop the hammer.

[bigfatdave]

Twice as safe for who?

For the person who is now TWO slide racks away from a functional firearm, rather than the only-a-little-safe one, of course.

(it is an exaggeration to point out the silliness of needing two hands to ready a defensive firearm)

The bad guy already has his loaded and ready to fire.

Exactly.
A defensive situation is NOT Hollywood, and it is NOT a quick-draw at the range. You will likely be at a disadvantage, you will likely be at bad breath distances, and you will never complain afterward about "taking too little time to prepare my defensive tool".

Chances are, you will need to present as rapidly as possible, and with a 1911-pattern pistol that means grasp, draw, on target, safety off
The same works for striker-fired handguns, although the thumb sliding down does nothing but complete your firing grip.

Of course, all this only matters if you actually carry AND might ever need your pistol in a hurry. If neither of those is true, feel free to take an extra moment to fumble for the hammer and then return to a full firing grip.

[Downeaster]

...My P229 is a DA/SA so it works just like a revolver on the first shot. I just like the idea of not having to mess with a safety during a highly stressed condition...

Precisely why I've started carrying my P220 or P226. I'm perfectly comfortable with Cocked & Locked and have carried that way for years, BUT, one less thing to remember when the adrenaline is running out your ears strikes me as a Good Thing!

[Mr. Nail]

These reliable and beautifully engineered tools have provided self defense for the home and military for 99 years but, it is 2010. All of my handguns will be double action. I say for recreation pull the hammer. For self preservation ( Just pull the trigger )

[bearandoldman]

Carry whatever suits you. This is a world of free choice. I prefer a 1911 and will always carry at least one of them. My normal grip puts my thumb on top of the safety anyway so it is not a problem finding it.

[Mr. Nail]

Strongly ageed. Shoot or carry what soots you. Im just in agreement w/ blue68f100 on the recommendation of a double action as an alternate firearm. Not to discredit the capabilities of the popular 1911. Ive shot alot of em by alot of different manufacturers and they have my recommendation for what my recommendations worth. They have however evolved over the last century w/ different modifications from grip safties to modern sights. Sometimes too many options can scramble the mind in the heat of battle.

[Hakaman]

I always catch h*** when I reveal my "carry" format. For the majority of the time, I carry my Kahr PM9 "unchambered" in my pocket holster. It is a striker-fire system where the striker pin is in a half cocked position all the time. I know it seems impossible to have a firing malfunction without an intention to shoot, but I am not totally convinced. If I were going into a "bad area" I will chamber a round for safety, but other then that, I'll take my chances. Old Haka can draw/chamber/fire a round pretty quickly, about as fast as if one were in the chamber. I have lived several decades now without ever needing my hg for self defense. I may need one today? Maybe tomorrow? Who knows? I risk more retribution by saying "I think there are many gun owners who are a little paranoid when it comes to carrying a hg." It's almost like they expect a "bad guy" to jump out at every turn. Yea, I know it can happen at any time, but ask yourself, when was the last time you needed a carry piece to protect yourself? I am 55 yo, and never needed it yet.
With all that said, I "do" carry, but not chambered.
Reverend Haka


always sunny here, and 77 degrees