S&W QC, another reason to like Rugers!

[ruger22]

Linked on another forum. Self-explanatory.......

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=632524

[Coach1]

I see that the original poster / gun owner, reports that S&W is closed until January 2. So, the next chapter of that story has yet to be written.

One observation is that there are more than a few numbskulls on that forum.
Makes me appreciate all the more the caliber ( no pun intended) of members here.

[greener]

I've never counted flutes on revolvers. Guess I will now. Interesting post, lots of chatter following. A couple of those cylinder walls look a tad thin.

[Bullseye]

All the hassles could have been avoided if the original purchaser had done a thorough inspection on the firearm prior to buying that particular weapon. Opening the cylinder and inspecting the chambers is one of my first things on the list of check list of fit & finish items. It is too obvious that the cylinder walls are out of specifications with that additional cylinder flute.

R,
Bullseye

[bearandoldman]

All the hassles could have been avoided if the original purchaser had done a thorough inspection on the firearm prior to buying that particular weapon. Opening the cylinder and inspecting the chambers is one of my first things on the list of check list of fit & finish items. It is too obvious that the cylinder walls are out of specifications with that additional cylinder flute.

R,
Bullseye

Wow!!! 7 flutes on a 6 shot cylinder, more for your money at no added extra cost. As far as inspection . I thought everyone when they pick up any gun no matter in new or used, yours or mine or the guns hops was, to see if it was loaded? Had that been done there would have been no problem, unless it was bought by long distance with no inspection. My J frame sets on the table in the living room and is always loaded, but before I put it in my pocket and leaving the house. I always flip the cylinder open to check for ammo.

[Hakaman]

I own two Smiths, and as I have mentioned before, they are my two favorite guns. Nonetheless, that is pretty bad. To think that Smith left the factory like that is has got to be an embarrassment to them. Just the same, it doesn't surprise me that much, both my Smiths had to be sent back for "issues" right after I brought them home. After that, they are just fine. I think S&W must have hired out the QAQC dept to the some foreign country.
Hakaman

[Oldguy]

Well, I'm done with Smith & Wesson, at least new ones. I have owned (past tense) 3 new Smiths: a 686 SSR, 1911, and M&P9. Only one I currently own is the 686, but that's after sending it back to S&W. Was lucky to stay on a 12x12" target at 10 yards. Happened with .357 and .38, target handloads as well as factory ammo. Started looking and noticed the forcing cone had "rings" in it that looked like machining marks. I returned it to S&W, and after a month got it back with cryptic note saying "Honed forcing cone, replaced barrel." Seems to be OK now, but shouldn't have to do this with a Pro Series (supposedly better parts and careful assemble. Not the custom shop, but supposed to be a notch above the run of the mill 686. How did it get through final inspection?

The M&P and the 1911 were traded for a Model 67 S&W, and the 1911 got traded for a Sig Sauer 1911. Not at all sorry. The Model 67 was made in 1972, and is a great shooting gun. The Sig 1911 is so much better and nicer than the S&W 1911 it's not funny.

Quality control needs some improvement at S&W. I've bought my last.

[Hakaman]

My 686 had a firing pin bushing misdrilled, and my M&P 9mm Pro series had the barrel rifling machined poorly. Both guns had to be shipped back within the first few days of bringing them home. More experienced shooters would have probably caught those things before being purchased, but experienced I wasn't.
haka

[Oldguy]

First of all. Happy New Year to everyone. Hope it was a safe one.

I understand what S&W is doing. The people who actually shoot their guns is a pretty small number. I heard that the average used gun that is sold has 15 rounds through it. I do test batches of 50 when developing new handloads, but those who read and participate in this forum are not average gun owners. I also read that there are 80 million gun owners in the US and only 4 million NRA members. 5% of gun owners belong to the NRA??? Think the politics and 2nd Amendment arguments would be different if the NRA had 80 million members? But I digress.

Smith makes guns to sell at a profit. They know from the above numbers that maybe 5% of the people who buy their guns will shoot them, even a smaller number will shoot them on a regular basis. So it's cheaper to have to fix the occasional one that comes back from one of us than it is to make them all perfect to begin with. How critical is it for a 7 cylinder part be drilled with 6 chambers when the gun will likely spend the next 30 years in a dresser drawer?

I think Smith quality is in the toilet, and like I said, I've bought my last new one.

[Hakaman]

Smith makes guns to sell at a profit. They know from the above numbers that maybe 5% of the people who buy their guns will shoot them, even a smaller number will shoot them on a regular basis. So it's cheaper to have to fix the occasional one that comes back from one of us than it is to make them all perfect to begin with. How critical is it for a 7 cylinder part be drilled with 6 chambers when the gun will likely spend the next 30 years in a dresser drawer?

I think Smith quality is in the toilet, and like I said, I've bought my last new one.

Some interesting points you brought up. People usually won't step out from the norm unless they are forced to. Eighty million members in the NRA would be a powerful entity. I can't believe how poorly some people shoot when I see them at the range. They have never been taught, don't practice the skills they do know. As for S&W, their QA has gone down hill, especially sad because of the name they have built through the years. I still like their guns and wouldn't hesitate to buy one, but I would inspect it thoroughly before laying the money down.
Haka

[greener]

I'd like to see some statistic on S&W or Ruger quality. Most of what we hear and see is anecdotal. Some of the recent Smith stuff I've fired has done very well. I didn't like the 686 I bought and was ready to jump on the lower quality Smith bandwagon until I finally figured out that I need to change the grip to one that fits me better. My recent experiences with the LC9 doesn't say a lot about Ruger's recent QC. Smith has no excuse for letting a cylinder bored for 6 and fluted for 7 out of production.

I agree with the observation that most folks who own firearms shoot them very infrequently, if at all. I belong to a limited membership club and a great number of the members have trouble hitting a 3'x3' backer at 7 yards. I have an acquaintance who bought a Redhawk .44 20+ years ago, loaded it and put it in the dresser drawer. In the past couple years he has bought an M&P9 and two S&W .380's. Loaded them and has not fired them. I've been after him to take them out shooting until he gets some basic proficiency. He hasn't because he fired a .22 once and didnt like the noise and recoil. I'm waiting for him to shoot the .44.

[blue68f100]

From what I have read on forums All mfg are putting out sub standard guns. With the internet you mostly hear of the bad ones. I was reading on another forum that Les Bear and Ed Brown has some $2k+ guns with creep in the triggers. If I laid out that kind of money to get a premium gun you would expect a trigger that was second to none. The trigger is about the first thing you teat on any gun. You would think the one doing the test fire would have noticed that. Since most of their guns are considered High end Custom build, you expect nothing but perfection. They are all hand built, that does not give them much creditability. This is where buying over the internet to save a few bucks can bite you. It's always best to inspect a gun before buying. Now all of the mfgs are taking the necessary steps to correct the problem when returned. But with some it takes more than one trip. But it's still a major inconvenience to return a gun. The way bad news travel these days it does not take too many to start hurting their reputation and sales.

Happy New Year to all, I will get off the soap box now.....

[greener]

You'd think that with all the new, high-tech, computer controlled manufacturing that the parts would be pretty precise and would require less fitting during hand assemblies. I'd think the overall quality would be better. Some complaints like trigger creep makes me wonder if it is expectations or like the "Princess and the Pea" story, I'm just not sensitive enough to notice. It has to be really bad, like my Ruger SR9 before I notice it.

If I judged Ruger quality by the LC9 I bought recently they would certainly fail. They had it two of the first 4 months I owned it fixing a design/manufacturing flaw that put shavings in the firing pin channel. It has shot high and with a bit of scatter. I thought that was me or my loads. Last week bgreene and I put at least 150 rounds of commercial 115 gr FMJ through it: 4" high at 10 yards and we had difficulty keeping the group at 4" from a rest. If it weren't for the fact that I have other Rugers that shoot very well, my opinion of Ruger quality would be quite low.

[blue68f100]

You would think that the computer automated equipment would make it better but some parts and assembly is done my hand. And it's a human that has QC on final product. Now it shame that no one holds anybody responsible any more. They reward people for bad performance. It use to be the other way around, if you did not perform your out. If I had gone by reports I would have never bough my Kimber Ultra Carry II. But I went by the later ones reporting that they fixed the problems. I'm still hear horror stories on certain models of the Kimber. I here of guns that shoot way off and the issue is mainly the weight of the bullet used and the distance they were shooting it at. But a short barrel gun is very seldom shot at distances greater than 7-10 yrds. In your case they should send you a new gun and for your trouble let you pick another FREE. But that will never happen. I think your gun was suppose to be a different model and was built during a change over and not every thing got changed. So it was built with parts for a different model. That or one of the gunsmith was playing a joke on a person and it was never caught before it went out. Still it should have never been shipped.

Automation can only go so far. You would expect better parts in some areas but not all. Trigger groups is one where they are using MIM parts without doing any clean up. My Sig was the worst trigger I have ever seen in a Sig. The German made one are still hand fitted and are a lot better. I do think they are now using MIM parts but are cleaning them up like they were on the cast/forged ones. I have seen some MIM part for my gun that looked good quality, mine was not one of them. I also hear about the wrong sights being installed all the time. This happens when the same gun is produced in different calibers.

In your case I would see about sending a email/letter to the upper brass with pictures showing how bad they screwed up, if you can get that info. Sometimes the upper management are shielded such that they never hear about the problems. With Kimber once you get to the right person up the ladder things actually get fixed.

There is one guy on the M1911.org forum that has a UCII like mine that has cracked frames in 800 rounds or less, one in <400 rounds. There is obviously something wrong with the barrel fitting to over load and fail a frame that quickly. Where a few have well over 15k rounds have no problems. I'm watching mine pretty close but I see no indicating of the cracking on mine. Since Kimber only has 1yr warranty he has run out and I think was faced to paying for the frame. I think he got in touch with upper management and got the gun replaced Free which should of happen the second time it happened. Once a Flute, second there's a problem, 3rd should had never happen. But the horror stories I keep hearing about Kimber's CS, I'm not sure I would buy another.

I was thinking about getting a Les Bear but with the problems with the trigger I will definitely check before buying.

[bearandoldman]

We only hear about the bad ones, right? If 1 of 1,000 is bad to some extent is that a bad ratio?
As far as manufacturing they are all doing the job to keep the prices where people will buy their product, pay the wages and benefits and the cost of the building and machinery and still make a few buck in the end
I worked for a company years ago that made measuring tolls, I worked as a toll designer and a process engineer and know the manufacturing process from raw material to finished product. I really don't think they are doing all that bad as far as what they are producing with thew cosst of labor, benefits and overhead. In fact I have a few guns that for the price do more than I ever expected. You can't really expect a silk purse for the price of a sows ear, eh?
I don't own any $2,000.00 guns so I have no experience in that area. I have not experienced any real problems with nay of the guns I have, but maybe I am not that particular or look at things from a different point of view.
No on is perfect, we all make a mistake now or then, eh? The last person that was perfect got nailed to a cross, 2,000+ years ago.
Just my thought on a few things.