Needed ?

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greener

Needed ?

Post by greener » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:32 am

The pictured part fell out of one of my 1911's during removal of hammer/sear/disconnector. The only place I can find something like that is on a Delta Elite schematic and appears to attach to the sear. The only schematic I can find anything that looks like that is a Delta Elite schematic and the part on that schematic defeats my tired old eyes to identify.

My guess is I don't need it, but does anyone know what it is supposed to do?

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Last edited by greener on Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bearandoldman
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Post by bearandoldman » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:54 am

What part you talking about . boy?
You have great day and shoot straight and may the Good Lord smile on you.
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greener

Post by greener » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:21 am

That one.

Thanks for the adult supervision.

And Happy New Year to you and Bear.

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bearandoldman
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Post by bearandoldman » Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:27 am

greener wrote:That one.

Thanks for the adult supervision.

And Happy New Year to you and Bear.
Same to you my friend. As far as that part goes, you got me? if the gun runs without it, it was not really needed anyway, just get alongwithout it.
You have great day and shoot straight and may the Good Lord smile on you.
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Post by Bullseye » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:15 pm

That looks like a Gold Cup sear lever. It's spring loaded onto the sear and is designed to provide more engagement pressure and prevent sear bounce. The Gold Cup has a wider and heavier trigger assembly which is subject to more force when fired. Since the trigger pull weight is lighter and the trigger itself is heavier, Colt designed this little spring lever to help absorb some of the impact of recoil and prevent doubling when firing high powered loads. The GC was designed primarily as a wadcutter target gun but they knew folks would shoot ball out of them so they incorporated this little sear gadget.

Here's a picture that shows much better where that part goes: http://www.m1911.org/technic16.htm

Those are real fun to get back into the pistol. Make yourself a small wooden pin, just wide enough to meet the edges of the sear and the depressor lever. Use a piece of round wooden toothpick or the wood stick off of a chemical Q-Tip. The stick will hold the lever in place by the tiny sear springs pressure until you get the sear positioned in the frame and then you just push it out of the frame with the sear pin and everything's assembled. It may take a few tries to get it right.

R,
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greener

Post by greener » Sat Jan 01, 2011 12:58 pm

Thanks, that explains the spring I accidentally saw pop out. If you don't know it's there, it could disappear quite easily.

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Since the pistol wasn't really broke, I immediately started fixing it. I wanted a better trigger pull and ordered a Cylinder and Slide kit. The originals are on the right and the C&S sear and disconnector are on the left. The reverse side of the sears are below.

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The C&S sear has a "hook" at the base(?) the colt sear does not. Is that the way the colt sears came originally?

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Post by Bullseye » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:10 pm

Here's a better picture of how the depressor lever actually sits in a Gold Cup

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If you're going without it then you could see doubling in your pistol. The option would be to go with a Dlask aluminum lightweight replacement trigger for your Gold Cup.

R,
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greener

Post by greener » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:12 pm

Bullseye wrote: If you're going without it then you could see doubling in your pistol. The option would be to go with a Dlask aluminum lightweight replacement trigger for your Gold Cup.

R,
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.

I wish it were a Gold Cup. This is one of the two builds I bought. This one is an Essex frame with US&S slide and other parts. The pistol originally had the grip safety inactivated and, I heard, a superlight trigger. The FFL who sold it on consignment wouldn't sell it that way and fixed the gun. Although I'd suspect the hammer and sear are as received on consignment, but I'm not sure. The trigger was a bit stiff and I figured "fix" it with a new hammer sear and leaf spring.

I didn't recognize the parts that came out.

On the first shot at replacing the parts the thumb safety went in with a little effort, wouldn't work and then absolutely didn't want to come out.

Wouldn't be nearly as much fun if it were easy, I guess.

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Post by Bullseye » Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:19 pm

OK, the original owner had a gold cup sear installed likely for the same reason to prevent doubling with an ultra light trigger. Since you don't have the "fat" gold cup trigger in your pistol then you should be OK with the C&S replacements sans the gold cup sear.

When you sat the thumb safety wouldn't work what exactly did that mean? The thumb safety is designed to block the sear's rearward pivotal movement and that is how it works. The C&S sear may be at a different angle than the original and the safety may need fitting. Is the plunger pin hanging up on the dimple preventing the safety from coming out? About 3/4 way down this page is a good description of how to fit your thumb safety. http://www.realguns.com/archives/151.htm , and some more on this page http://www.realguns.com/archives/154.htm

R,
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greener

Post by greener » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:53 pm

The thumb safety in the "fire" position was riding on the sear. It wouldn't turn and, if you did a manly push to get it locked in before you realized the problem, it had to be moved with a punch and hammer. I ended up taking a Dremel grinder to the "back side" of the post that locked the sear. Didn't measure the amount. The post had been "grooved" to fit over the sear and then turn. I flattened out the back side of the groove. The safety works and the sear seems to give me a bit lighter and crisper release than I had.

During all this, I discovered the grip safety didn't work. I can't think of anything changing the sear and hammer would have to do with this. The grip safety doesn't contact the hammer bow without being tilted to an impossible angle. I know I've tested this on one of the two, I thought I tested it on this one. I guess I didn't.


Looks like the next stop on this on is zen and grip safeties.

PS. Thanks for the links. They were very helpful

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Post by Medicine Hat » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:18 am

That thing is so contrary and stubborn that it just HAS to be female. :roll:

greener

Post by greener » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:30 am

Medicine Hat wrote:That thing is so contrary and stubborn that it just HAS to be female. :roll:
Maybe I should call the pistol "Christine" :lol:

I bought two 1911's to tinker with. I may end up like one of my New Orleans neighbors. He bought a used Porsche 914 and found a few problems. He developed such a passion for it, he dropped all his other hobbies just to fix the car. He then bought another one and was excited about the fact that it had more problems.

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Post by Bullseye » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:53 pm

Changing the sear could definitely affect the grip safety. The grip safety bar operates off of the back of the trigger bow. A new sear may cause the trigger bow to be in a different relative position than from the previous sear. When the grip safety is not depressed it blocks the trigger bow from moving rearward and activating the sear to release the hammer. When its depressed, the grips safety pivots upward and out of the way of the trigger bow so it can mover rearward.

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Is your safety hanging up, in other words seems like it is depressed?

R,
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greener

Post by greener » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:49 pm

The grip safety feels pretty much like the ones on my other two 1911's. It's held back by the right finger on the leaf spring. I do feel a vibration (hammer strut?) on this when the safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled.

I'm not sure I understand how the sear changes the geometry of the trigger/bow grip safety. The grip safety blocks the rearward movement of the trigger bow, which is pretty much locked into the grip frame. I could see a sear changing the allowance for rearward distance before releasing the sear. I may replace the sear I removed and check the grip safety for operation.

With nothing in the pistol but the trigger and grip safety, the safety does not block the rearward movement of the until I tip the grip safety to the point that the lower part of the grip safety is 1/8" or more out of the grip frame.

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Post by Bullseye » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:49 am

The grip safety feels pretty much like the ones on my other two 1911's. It's held back by the right finger on the leaf spring. I do feel a vibration (hammer strut?) on this when the safety is depressed and the trigger is pulled.
If you feel that vibration as the hammer falls, then the hammer strut is hitting the inner channel of your grip safety. You may need to open up that passage a little more to prevent the contact between those two parts.
I'm not sure I understand how the sear changes the geometry of the trigger/bow grip safety. The grip safety blocks the rearward movement of the trigger bow, which is pretty much locked into the grip frame. I could see a sear changing the allowance for rearward distance before releasing the sear. I may replace the sear I removed and check the grip safety for operation.
There are minor changes in positioning which can affect the components alignment from one set to another. This is why hammers, sears, and safeties have to be carefully mated together. You've already experienced this with your thumb safety. It had to be modified because the new sear and hammer have different tolerances which put them in different relative positions than the old set. Otherwise if there wasn't a positional change, you wouldn't have needed to alter the stop on the thumb safety lever.
With nothing in the pistol but the trigger and grip safety, the safety does not block the rearward movement of the until I tip the grip safety to the point that the lower part of the grip safety is 1/8" or more out of the grip frame.
This is the root of the problem. I was mistaken in thinking your grip safety was hanging up when instead it is not being positioned outward enough to engage the trigger bow. Since you can tip the safety out to force the engagement that tells me the hooks on the bottom edge are not preventing the proper pivotal positioning. It sounds like you just need to bend the right fork outward more on the sear leaf spring to provide more outward tension on the grip safety. The bottom edge of the grip safety should stick out about 1/8" away from the receiver frame when engaged. If this is not possible then that grip safety may have been modified by the original owner to match the other sear and hammer components and you may need to start out with fitting a new one.

R,
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