Ammo and sighting-in a .357 rifle.

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:56 pm

Accuracy is still a big question mark in my project toy.???

I've been using my .38 spl light target loads in 125 gr, RNFP and 158 gr SWC (both cast) with 4 gr. trailboss powder. This is to keep noise level low so as not to make the neighbors complain. These do not group well at all, at 120'. I'm not ready to blame the rifle......I'm thinking loads at this point. I have a chance, late next week, to visit a gun club range that has 25yd, 50 yd and 100 yd rifle ranges with bench rest and sand bags available.

I'm wondering what kind of ammo I should take with me to sight in and at what range would be best. Would it be best to take factory ammo in .357 mag. and sight in at 50 yds???? Or ???? I don't have any other components to make "test" rounds with right now. My son loads for .357 mag to shoot in his Marlin...I could use some of his for testing. I should mention that his .38 spl. loads are also wild at 100 yds, but .357 mags shoot well in his Marlin 1894C.

I guess what I'm asking is, if you had this beast (.357 stubbie), what ammo would you start with to sight in and at what range? I'm thinking 50 yds for the scope and red dot and 50 ft. for the laser. Is that reasonable? Maybe factory .357 mag. ammo?

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:06 pm

Something that leads me to think I need more umph....I found this, lying on the ground at the base of a tin can I was shooting at, at 120'. It had to be a 158 gr. in a .38 spl case with 4 gr. of Trailboss. That's all I had been shooting in the area. It hit something....maybe the edge of a steel plate target I had shot at earlier or a piece of gravel.....or it plowed through the ground and stopped at the base of the can. Hardly any damage except for the edge being sheared off.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:55 pm

if you up the velocity over 1200fpswith the 357 loads you'll need jacketed bullets or gas checks to avoid leading the bore. i like universal clays in 38 spl in about the 850-900fps range out of pistols.

bluedot is great in 357's.

KAZ · Post by **KAZ** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:54 pm

Jack, American Eagle 357 158 Jacketed SP has been really accurate in my Marlin and does not break the bank. I only shoot 357 and never 38 so that I don't get a 38 "ring" in my 357 chamber. Now when I reload my 357 cases I prefer more of a 38 power load. Regards
50 yds

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:24 pm

I would try some jacketed first any flavor of 357mag. 25yrds. If it's not grouping there you need to look at the crown/barrel for something ariy. If you have not slugged your barrel I would before you shoot any more lead. Your bore maybe over size and need a larger sizing to get the best accuracy. If you want to roll your own use some Hornady XTP bullets. These have produced the most accurate rounds in my guns.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:24 pm

A real nice puff load that my friend and I have been shooting is a 148 grain hollow vase wad cutter with 2.4 grains of Trailboss. Shoot really soft and accurate at 25 yard, ten shot groups are one raggedy hole. How much power do you need to kill a tin can or punch a hole in a piece of paper? Accuracy falls off drastically at 50 yards though.

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:31 pm

How much power do you need to kill a tin can or punch a hole in a piece of paper?

Wasn't concerned about poking a hole, but stabilizing the bullets. Was thinking maybe they weren't spinning fast enough......but they are hitting point on. It appears the one I pictured in 158 gr. just barely made it to the target at 120' (40 yds).

If you want to roll your own use some Hornady XTP bullets.

this is what my son uses in his Marlin....also with good results. May have to go that route. I'll be there late next week. I bet he'll let me try a few of his loads.

I did load some 125 gr and 158 gr to +P (.38 spl) with Bullseye to take with me to try out.

I'm wondering about rifling differences, too. Many Marlins have something different ("Microgroove?") My son's is new, so it may be different again. This is an area I'm not real familiar with. Just things I've heard. I'm wondering if rifling differences will make some shoot better at low velocities than others.

bgreenea3 · Post by **bgreenea3** » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:08 pm

every bbl is different.......

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:00 pm

My range session was a learning experience, for sure. This rifle does not like .38 spls. in any loading. Is it the case length? Lead bullets? More experimenting is necessary.

In the first target, I fired two rds of .38 spl +P, Bullseye, 125 gr RNFP. and two rds of the same load 158 gr SWC, at 25 yds. They, as before, were all over the place. Then I fired 5 rds of .357 mag. hand loads with unknown powder and XTP bullets (my sons hand loads). Much better results.

The second target is 5 rds. .357 Remington 125 gr. factory loads at 25 yds.

Then I moved to 100 yds., all .357 mags. mixed 125 gr. factory and 158 gr XTP. 5 rds, then adjust scope, then 5 rds, adjust again. Final 5 rds circled.

Range time expiring so that was the last shots fired from this rifle.

It seems that .357 mag. loads, no matter the bullet weight, perform well in this rifle. Now I'll test lighter loads with mag. cases and different bullets.

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:46 pm

Well it for sure does like the lead 38spl loads. Have you slugged your barrel for this gun? The reason I ask is that you normally want 0.001" over the barrel size to get a good seal.

Have you tried lead in the 357 case? I'm kind of thinking is that the bullet may be getting shaved on the 38spl load. You would not think that small case length would make that much difference.

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:03 pm

blue68f100 wrote:Well it for sure does (not) like the lead 38spl loads. Have you slugged your barrel for this gun? The reason I ask is that you normally want 0.001" over the barrel size to get a good seal.

Have you tried lead in the 357 case? I'm kind of thinking is that the bullet may be getting shaved on the 38spl load. You would not think that small case length would make that much difference.

I have not slugged the barrel. I honestly don't even know what that means....except maybe to push a bullet through with a dowel or similar???? I've heard the term used and conjured up an image in my mind, but that's all.

My next test will be to load mag cases with a light charge of Trailboss and cast bullets. Then a light charge of Trailboss and jacketed bullets for comparison. Unfortunately, I (accidently) left all my magnum cases behind with my son. I guess I'll have to buy a box and pull the bullets in a few for trial purposes. Can't shoot them out here....neighbors might not like the noise.

Medicine Hat · Post by **Medicine Hat** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:02 pm

Jack D wrote:My next test will be to load mag cases with a light charge of Trailboss and cast bullets. Then a light charge of Trailboss and jacketed bullets for comparison. Unfortunately, I (accidently) left all my magnum cases behind with my son. I guess I'll have to buy a box and pull the bullets in a few for trial purposes. Can't shoot them out here....neighbors might not like the noise.

You might just go to your LGS and pick up a 'baggie' of .357 brass and load those. I would think it would be cheaper than tearing down factory loaded new rounds. Just thinkin'

blue68f100 · Post by **blue68f100** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:48 pm

Slugging the barrel is a test used to see exactly what the bore size is. You can not use a sized bullet unless it's 0.002"-0.004" over size. You use to be able to use fishing weights since these were pure lead, but not any more. If you happen to have some that are close they work just fine. A lot of them are alloy now. What I do is is use a un-sized fired brass and melt some 100% lead into it. I then use a kinetic bullet puller to get the lead out. Make sure the side are clean, no carbon (powder residue) or ripples. The spent brass will be over sized enough so that you do not have a lot of excess to size down. And toward the rim it get smaller making it easier to get started. I generally head up the brass so I get a smooth cast. Once I have a couple of slugs ready to go I oil the barrel real well as well as the slug. Drop the smaller end in the chamber end and drive it down the barrel use wood dowel. It's best to have the wood ( I use hardwood like oak) dowels in 6" lengths to minimize flex. The you just stack them till you get it all the way though. Once you get it sized it does not take a lot of force to drive it out. Then you measure the slug diameter to determine the size. If you happen to have a even number twist barrel you can use calipers on the muzzel end but I'm not that fortunate.

Lead is not as easy to load as some think it is. Too hot you lead, to weak you do not seal off. Lead hardness impacts how hard or soft you need to push them. In most all cases the lead should be 0.001" over your bore size (or throat on revolver) to ensure you seal off. I have a bookmark somewhere that covers lead casting, sizing and how to find that magic range for your gun.

bearandoldman · Post by **bearandoldman** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:52 pm

Have loaded a lot of light loads of Trail Boss in both .38 and .357 cases and they all shoot the same. Shot them in a 686 Smith, a Ruger Blackhawk and a Marlin 1894C. Never could get the 158 SWC's to shoot to my specs no matter what powder and load we tried. Did get 158RNFP; to shoot good with 4.6 grains of Green Dot. The 2.3 load of Trailboss with the 148 HBWC's shoots great in all of those guns but seems to have a 25 yard max, but a great plinking load with literally no recoil more than a .22LR.

Jack D · Post by **Jack D** » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:31 pm

Now I'm wondering about antimony rather than lead. A gunsmith once showed me how to get a separated case part from a chamber using antimony. A plug of cloth is placed in the barrel just ahead of the case/chamber and antimony is melted and poured into the chamber. After it cooled, a dowel is driven down the muzzle end driving out the antimony and the broken case with it.He said it worked because it (antimony) did not shrink as it cooled. It does work. I used that method for many years until I sold the rifle that had that problem. I'm thinking the same method would work to make a cast of the barrel at the muzzle end, push it out and measure it with mic. Have you ever tried this method? I don't think I still have that bit of antimony, however.

You might just go to your LGS and pick up a 'baggie' of .357 brass and load those. I would think it would be cheaper than tearing down factory loaded new rounds.

Might be at that. Not sure though. LGS is 20 miles one way and local discount store only 4 miles. They sell ammo, but not brass (I don't think they do anyway). I'll check that.

One thing I can try...my son gave me some jacketed bullets that I can load in.38 cases. Sounds like a project for tomorrow.

2.3 load of Trailboss

You could almost play "catch" with that load.

I'd like to try it. I could shoot all day and not even wake the dog.