.358" bullets in .357 Mag. loads???

The place to discuss reloading techniques.

Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

.358" bullets in .357 Mag. loads???

Post by Jack D » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:40 pm

I've been searching for spitzer type bullets to load in my .357 mag. SS rifle and the pickings are very slim, indeed. I've found three and they are all heavier than I would like and all are .358".

Two in particular are interesting for a .357 mag.
1: Hornady .358 200 gr. FTX
2: Hornady .358 180 gr. Interlock SP SSP

The 3rd is the Speer 180 gr. SPFN.

Can the .358 jacketed bullet be safely fired in a .357 rifle? Many sources say yes, but I'm not really convinced.

Another question that bothers me is; will these bullets expand properly at .357 mag. rifle impact velocities that might range from 1000 fps to 1500 fps?
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:06 pm

I think FTX was meant to be used with the 35 remington which is a 1600-2000fps cartidge it should be fine at 1200ish out of your 357 mag, pressures will be higher due to the tighter fit, you might want to slug the bore to see what the inside diameter is.

the interlock is more likely designed around the 35 Whelen type round which is a 2600-2800fps range so expansion is not likely.
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:54 am

Like Greener said you will need to slug your barrel. It will work but you will need to start at min and work up looking for pressure signs. If it's on the small side (0.355") it may not work for you.

Hornady's XTP HP are among the most accurate you can get. HP in general will give you more bearing surface for stabilizing the rounds. More accurate than a RN out of pistol.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:51 pm

The barrel is .356+ (about .3565) so I'm going to assume it will take the .358" bullet OK.

The 200 gr. FTX has a better BC (.300) than the 180 gr. Interlock (.248) and the trajectory is similar, probably due to the BC. Ranging from .5" higher to .5" lower at 200 yds with the same "0" (175 yds). It also retains more energy at 200 yds than the 180 gr. (depending on MV, of course). With a MV of 1600 fps, it is still moving at 1231 fps and has 673'# of energy at 200 yds. Of course that MV of 1600 is a WAG and may be optimistic.

If the 200 gr FTX will expand properly at those velocities, it would probably be an acceptable load for my area (blacktail deer and black bear country).

I haven't found any loads for the .357 with 200 gr. bullets, so I'll have to take a stab at a starting load. I'm thinking about 16 gr. of 4227 to start. The absolute most I can get in the .357 case and still seat the bullet ~1/4" is 20 gr. of 4227 and that is compressed. 20 gr of 4227 is what I load with the 140 gr. FTX and have no signs of excess pressure. It will be interesting to see how high I can go without seeing excess pressure signs.
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:42 pm

I have seen T/C Contender .357 mag loads for Hunters Pistol Silhouette that utilized a Speer 180 grn flat-nosed spitzer. Sorry that I do not remember the load of 296, other than the fact that the bullet crunched the powder while being seated, and that the recoil was quite stout.

Definitely something to sneak up on carefully, watching for pressure signs all the way.

We fired the pistol once at a folded newspaper placed on a hillside several hundred yards away. The pistol had a 2X EER scope. Seems like it was 250-300 yards, but there was no good way to measure.

After a few ranging shots, it was no trouble to "do it on the paper" every time with the 10" Contender, sitting on the ground and steadying my arms on my knees. - I had found a rock above the paper on the hillside that I could aim at for a reliable hit.

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:59 pm

This whole prospect is intriquing. A single shot rifle in .357 magnum with a SAAMI chamber (a very long throat) and a 200 gr. FTX spitzer bullet.

In my research, I've learned that I can load 20 gr. of 4227 and still seat the bullet 1/4" (slightly compressed). Testing, I've learned I can seat the bullet 1/8" and still get a firm grip. I can't remove the bullet with my hands...it is firm. and this is with a rounded base 140 gr. FTX. I think the 200 gr. FTX has a sharp base so even a better grip at 1/8". With a bullet seated at 1/8" I can probably get 21 gr. of 4227 in a load. With the 140 gr. FTX seated to 1/8" the COL is 1.96" and is still well off the lands. The shape of the ogive of the 200 grain will give plenty of room at this COL and more. The COL of the Hodgdon load in the Maxi is 1.99".

Now before you guys get all excited....I wouldn't do that without working up in the normal manner...it's just that I physically can. And what that tells me is that I can approach, maybe equal and possibly even surpass the published .357 Maxi load for the 200 gr. bullet in a .357 SAMMI chamber. The published Maxi load for a 200 gr. bullet with 4227 powder (Hodgdon website) is 18 gr. 4227. Because of the deep throat and the shape of the 200 gr. FTX, I can easily equal that and possibly, with testing, even surpass that load.

A lot a testing is forth coming. As soon as I can locate a box of 200 gr. FTX, I'll be working up a load to see how far I can go and still be safe. H110 powder is even more promising. It seems it gives higher velocities and lower pressures.

I think I'm getting a new addiction. Tailoring a load to suit a particular gun has a significant advantage.

http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=120
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:06 pm

It would not cost much to rent a .357 Max reamer and run it through in there. - Cases are hard to find, and expensive when you find them though.

I had a 10" .357 Max Contender barrel once, and remember thinking that what it really needed was more barrel.

Recoil was decidedly unpleasant but it was accurate when I did my part.

If you end up needing more grunt for your rifle, that would probably be the quickest and easiest way to go.

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:32 pm

charlesb wrote:It would not cost much to rent a .357 Max reamer and run it through in there. - Cases are hard to find, and expensive when you find them though.

I had a 10" .357 Max Contender barrel once, and remember thinking that what it really needed was more barrel.

Recoil was decidedly unpleasant but it was accurate when I did my part.

If you end up needing more grunt for your rifle, that would probably be the quickest and easiest way to go.
I have considered that, and haven't discarded the thought. However, if this load does what I think it might, there would be no need.
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:54 pm

No one locally (that I could find) had a box of .358 200 gr. FTX. Had to order and still ~2.5 weeks out.
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
blue68f100
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
Location: Piney Woods of East Texas

Post by blue68f100 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:34 pm

I have had this new reload data book for some time now and only looked at data for calibers I own. So digging through the New Lyman 49th Edition, it now has rifle loads for the 357mag (and 9mm) as well as TC data too. 110 gr to 170 gr bullet weights, with 110/296 as being the hot rod of the loads. Even a 204gr for the TC.
David

SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:10 pm

Here's a drawing of the two .357 Mag. and .357 Maxi, side by side. Cases drawn to scale, but bullet is generic, but identical in both. COL in the drawing is 2.17". The only difference between the two is the extra brass in the Maxi, and that is all wrapped around the bullet. I can't see why either one would have more pressure than the other. Assuming the chambers in the rifle(s) are also identical except the case area is longer in the Maxi.

Yesterday, I fired 5 rounds of the 140 gr. FTX over 20 gr. of IMR4227 in magnum cases with a COL of 1.86". All five rounds fired normally, without any signs of excess pressure. I measured the fired cases and just below the rim, they measured .377"-.381". Then I measured a case that was fired with a mouse load of 3.2 gr. of Trailboss and a 148 gr. HBWC in my SP101. It measured .383 just below the rim. Both were full length sized in my Lee turret loader and the same die set.

When the 200 grain FTX's get here, I'll work up a load in a similar fashion, and I expect to be able to get Remington Maximum loads in magnum cases. Depending on the rifling lands which will determine maximum COL.

Image
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
bgreenea3
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 1587
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 pm
Location: SW Michigan

Post by bgreenea3 » Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:36 pm

I believe the biggest problem.with the maximum was throat erosion because if unburned powder. But it looks like you are on the right track as long as you have enough case to grip the bullet you should be good
"Courage is being scared to death... and saddling up anyway."

-John Wayne

User avatar
Jack D
Expert contributor
Expert contributor
Posts: 429
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:00 pm
Location: Elmira, Oregon

Post by Jack D » Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:08 pm

bgreenea3 wrote:I believe the biggest problem.with the maximum was throat erosion because if unburned powder. But it looks like you are on the right track as long as you have enough case to grip the bullet you should be good
I've heard about the throat erosion problem, but most say that is in revolvers with light bullets and heavy charges. Then, according to what I've read, the problem disappears with heavy bullets. At any rate, I wouldn't be firing that many rounds to make that a concern. I load much lighter for target shooting.
Jack
Ruger SP101, 3", .357, CT laser
Ruger SR22P, CT laser
Ruger LCR22, CT laser
Ruger 10/22 Deluxe, scoped
H&R Handi, .357 customized, laser, red dot, scope, weapon light, bipod
Benjamin-Sheridan, 5mm (.20), scoped.

User avatar
charlesb
Master contributor
Master contributor
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:39 pm
Location: Mountains of West Texas

Post by charlesb » Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:23 pm

The problem was top strap erosion on the big Ruger revolver, just above the barrel-cylinder gap.

Throat erosion is not especially a problem with the .357 Max.

Kept out of revolvers, it does a great job. - I think they really missed the boat by not chambering a lever gun for it.

Biggjimm
Regular contributor
Regular contributor
Posts: 104
Joined: Sun May 20, 2012 1:30 am
Location: Marion Indiana

Post by Biggjimm » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:45 am

My neighbor has a H&R handi rifle that started life as .357 mag & he has hogged it out to a .357 max chamber & that rifle is an absolute blast to shoot & its extremely accurate. I thought about picking one up & doing the same to it for a deer rifle for my daughter as he still has the reamers but if what your thinking works out a guy wouldnt need to ream the chamber out. It'll be interesting to see how this works out for you jack. I wonder if anyone has done similar tests with the .44 mag loads. I shot another buddies .445 super mag the other day (which apparently could have just as well been named .44 maximum) and I was more than impressed with that round. So much that I'm either gonna try & find another .44 barrel for my encore rifle to rechamber or just have mike belm build me one to deer hunt with. I think it would easily be capable of getting me into the 200-250 yd range where my .44 mag is about out of juice at 115 yds or so. I'll definitely be eagerly awaiting your test data jack. Good luck & be safe my friend.
In youth we learn,
In age we understand.

Post Reply