Hi all. I have done most of the mods for my newish 22/45, keep it clean, have maybe 500 rounds through it, and have worked out all but basically one issue: when shooting, all rounds eject except the first one. Same is true for all 5 mags, using WWB 333 bulk, Fed 525 bulk, and Rem Golden Bullet bulk. After shooting the first round, the casing is still left in the chamber (no stovepipe or jam). I have the Volquartsen extractor, the LCI has been removed, no limp wristing, etc. To see if it was a mag issue, I'd chamber the round, remove the mag, and then fire. Same issue, casing left in the chamber. So then I started to think there just wasn't enough charge to blow back the bolt fully or there was some extra resistance in that first cycle. When I up the ammo quality to Minimags or Stingers for the first round...no problems, the gun works 50 rounds in a row without hiccup. So upping the charge did make it cycle fully, with good extraction/ejection.
Question is, why does the gun cycle bulk ammo OK in the other 9 slots of the mag but not the first one?
Is there some extra resistance to blowback on the first round? Should I consider weakening the spring slightly by taking a coil or two out? Meantime, I'm putting a Minimag in the top round of the mags, which works but is kind of fussy to do.
Love the gun, but this has been the fly in the soup for the past couple weeks.
First round failure to extract/eject, 22/45 MKIII
Moderators: Bullseye, Moderators
This is an interesting problem. Right now my inclination is something with the chamber. Has this pistol always had this issue? Or did it develop over time?
If you look at the extractor groove, at the 3 o'clock position on the chamber wall, is there any chips missing from the thin edge? The picture below shows a MKIII with a slight chip out in the center of the extractor groove.
How about the extracted fired first case; are there any lines on the spent casing? What happens if you chamber the first round and then extract it manually without firing it? Does it extract? If so, then are there any deformations on the bullet nose or the cartridge casing?
Does this situation improve after shooting a while and the barrel heats up?
R,
Bullseye
If you look at the extractor groove, at the 3 o'clock position on the chamber wall, is there any chips missing from the thin edge? The picture below shows a MKIII with a slight chip out in the center of the extractor groove.
How about the extracted fired first case; are there any lines on the spent casing? What happens if you chamber the first round and then extract it manually without firing it? Does it extract? If so, then are there any deformations on the bullet nose or the cartridge casing?
Does this situation improve after shooting a while and the barrel heats up?
R,
Bullseye
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blue68f100
- Master contributor
- Posts: 1997
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Piney Woods of East Texas
If you have been shooting the Rem GoldenTurds you need to use a wire brush on a drill and attack the chamber. GB are bad at leading, and can leave a ring right where the chamber and rifling starts. I do not buy/shoot Rem 22 ammo for this reason. Once the gun gets broken in it will handle the lighter loaded ammo easier as it loosens up. No need to separate the upper for this. just pull the bolt.
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
Bullseye said:
"Does this situation improve after shooting a while and the barrel heats up? "
I personally am not close to being a gunsmith, but I wonder if the chamber is so close in tolerance that it needs some heating up and residue to act like a lubricant? You say you only have about 500 rds through it, maybe it will get better as time goes on? Are all .22lr rounds/manf the exact same size? I wonder what would happen if the breach were polished.
"Does this situation improve after shooting a while and the barrel heats up? "
I personally am not close to being a gunsmith, but I wonder if the chamber is so close in tolerance that it needs some heating up and residue to act like a lubricant? You say you only have about 500 rds through it, maybe it will get better as time goes on? Are all .22lr rounds/manf the exact same size? I wonder what would happen if the breach were polished.
One important detail I left out (sorry) was that the gun was modified to have an integral suppressor with the barrel being ported to bring ammo to subsonic speeds. That will weaken the pressures built up in the barrel, but it doesn't quite explain to me why the first round is different than the rest (although suppressed guns can behave differently on the first round in the case of first round pop.) Gun is really nice from the integral perspective ...Hollywood quiet, even with Stingers (so that porting is definitely taking some speed off those).
In response to suggestions (thanks):
I had polished the chamber a while back, but maybe I should wire brush it again. Yesterday, I did drop a round in the chamber manually, and it fit fine, and came out on it's own easily when the barrel was turned muzzle up. So that made me think the chamber was not too narrow or sticky.
The groove for the extractor looks good to me.
On the Golden Bullets, I didn't want them for that reason, but they were given to me in a paypal deal as a bonus. Hard to find anything these days. Walmart guy says he hasn't seen any 22 in months.
I also (yesterday) did try loading a round and then ejecting it before firing. It extracts and ejects fine with no markings on the case except where the extractor would claw normally.
With regards to improving while heating up, I was wondering if simply firing the first round heated up the gun enough and maybe softened the recoil spring just enough to make the spring weaker for following rounds (if fired in a relatively fast series). However, when I put a new mag in and load the first round, I'm back to square one with the casing still in the chamber after firing. Perhaps the spring stiffens/cools just enough when reloading? To answer the question, though, it doesn't seem to improve by the end of a session of shooting.
I did try polishing everything that was reachable. The gun doesn't really lend itself to doing that easily though.
I also considered it had something to do with slingshoting or bolt releasing the first round into the chamber, since that is different for the first round than those following. I tried slowly walking the bolt forward so as not to slam it like a full slingshot pull would do. No difference in the result though.
I am thinking that with time the recoil spring will weaken slightly and the problem will go away eventually, but I am also a born optimist. I was considering buying a second recoil spring, clipping a coil or two on the first one, and then using one for powerful rounds and one for weaker firing ones (cheap range ammo.)
In response to suggestions (thanks):
I had polished the chamber a while back, but maybe I should wire brush it again. Yesterday, I did drop a round in the chamber manually, and it fit fine, and came out on it's own easily when the barrel was turned muzzle up. So that made me think the chamber was not too narrow or sticky.
The groove for the extractor looks good to me.
On the Golden Bullets, I didn't want them for that reason, but they were given to me in a paypal deal as a bonus. Hard to find anything these days. Walmart guy says he hasn't seen any 22 in months.
I also (yesterday) did try loading a round and then ejecting it before firing. It extracts and ejects fine with no markings on the case except where the extractor would claw normally.
With regards to improving while heating up, I was wondering if simply firing the first round heated up the gun enough and maybe softened the recoil spring just enough to make the spring weaker for following rounds (if fired in a relatively fast series). However, when I put a new mag in and load the first round, I'm back to square one with the casing still in the chamber after firing. Perhaps the spring stiffens/cools just enough when reloading? To answer the question, though, it doesn't seem to improve by the end of a session of shooting.
I did try polishing everything that was reachable. The gun doesn't really lend itself to doing that easily though.
I also considered it had something to do with slingshoting or bolt releasing the first round into the chamber, since that is different for the first round than those following. I tried slowly walking the bolt forward so as not to slam it like a full slingshot pull would do. No difference in the result though.
I am thinking that with time the recoil spring will weaken slightly and the problem will go away eventually, but I am also a born optimist. I was considering buying a second recoil spring, clipping a coil or two on the first one, and then using one for powerful rounds and one for weaker firing ones (cheap range ammo.)
Well I must say this is an interesting problem. My first inclination was a lead build-up ring on the chamber wall or a burr causing extra friction. Drop checking results are making me rethink those causes. Although, if there is some lead spatter build up in the chamber it will tend to be rough. And a fired case expands to seal off any gas from escaping through the breech, which could cause the spent case to receive extra friction from the chamber, and a non-fired, non-expanded case would slip right out of the chamber. So it wouldn't hurt to chuck up a bronze cleaning brush in a hand drill and give that chamber a good polishing with some bore cleaner. Just take extra care not to push the brush too far into the barrel and snag the lands while doing it.
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
Hope this helps.
R,
Bullseye
So I just chucked up a bronze brush and cleaned out the chamber. Unfortunately, taking it out to shoot, I still have the same issue on the first round, sometimes second round too, but not the others generally speaking. Shot two mags of WWB.
Maybe a weaker recoil spring would help due to the barrel porting dissipating the pressures, making it act like a subsonic round (even though they are high velocity rounds).
No worries if we don't solve it today. Thanks all.
PS. I think I'll leave the bolt locked back overnight and see if the recoil spring is a little weaker tomorrow, enough to make a difference.
Maybe a weaker recoil spring would help due to the barrel porting dissipating the pressures, making it act like a subsonic round (even though they are high velocity rounds).
No worries if we don't solve it today. Thanks all.
PS. I think I'll leave the bolt locked back overnight and see if the recoil spring is a little weaker tomorrow, enough to make a difference.
Well one way to check out the recoil spring theory is to purchase another recoil spring assembly and cut a few coils off to lessen the tension. ShopRuger.com has them for $7.50 each. http://shopruger.com/Mark-III-III-Recoi ... nfo/61051/
You won't be able to disassemble the rod so just use a pair of wire cutters and cut off a few coils from one end. Then reinstall and test out the new reduced spring. It may take three or four coils to lessen the spring pressure enough to cycle those subsonic rounds. Mark the reduced tension rod and keep the other recoil assembly stock, and then you can switch them out if you decide to shoot higher velocity rounds.
If it doesn't work out then all your out is $7.50 and a little bit of your time.
R,
Bullseye
You won't be able to disassemble the rod so just use a pair of wire cutters and cut off a few coils from one end. Then reinstall and test out the new reduced spring. It may take three or four coils to lessen the spring pressure enough to cycle those subsonic rounds. Mark the reduced tension rod and keep the other recoil assembly stock, and then you can switch them out if you decide to shoot higher velocity rounds.
If it doesn't work out then all your out is $7.50 and a little bit of your time.
R,
Bullseye
-
blue68f100
- Master contributor
- Posts: 1997
- Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 10:31 pm
- Location: Piney Woods of East Texas
You might try just locking the bolt as far as it will go back and let it sit for 3-5 days and see if it takes a set that will weaken the RS. If properly design this will do nothing but in Mags it helps those on some 1911's.
The suppressor will definitely lower the pressure. I may have the old RS out of my MKIII still laying around. I know it's considerably weaker than the new one I put in.
Like BE said you will need to clip the coils to reduce the spring length while it's still on the rod. Due to assembly these can not be taken apart. Being spring material it may be hard enough to damage your cutters if not high quality.
The suppressor will definitely lower the pressure. I may have the old RS out of my MKIII still laying around. I know it's considerably weaker than the new one I put in.
Like BE said you will need to clip the coils to reduce the spring length while it's still on the rod. Due to assembly these can not be taken apart. Being spring material it may be hard enough to damage your cutters if not high quality.
David
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
SS MKIII 6 7/8" Fluted Hunter. Mueller Quick Shot, Bushnell 2x Scope, Hogue Rubber Grips
Custom Built 1911
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I did it overnight, but no luck this a.m. on the first round in two mags. I'll try it for 4-5 days before clipping the spring. Some recommend this (slide back) on the stiff Kahr p380 RS's as a break-in step."You might try just locking the bolt as far as it will go back and let it sit for 3-5 days and see if it takes a set that will weaken the RS."
If I get it going, I'll post again.
Update:
Slide being locked back for days didn't help a bit, so I ordered a new recoil assembly and decided to cut off some coils on the current one meanwhile. I initially took off 4 coils to be conservative, tested it, and found that was insufficient. I then took off an additional 3 coils, which made the Federal Champion bulk ammo workable on the first round, albeit rather pitiful ejection (almost hit my foot.) And that later improved when the gun was warmed up. Testing later when cold again, it still works but is a rather lame ejection, suggesting the spring may still be slightly too strong for the ammo. However, since the assembly seems to like some length in the spring in order to seat itself on the bolt, I didn't want to cut any more off lest it not hold on the to bolt as it is supposed to do.
So if anyone else tries this, I wouldn't take more than 7-8 coils off without some evaluation of the assembly in the gun. I suppose it's possible to stretch it out longer with fewer coils, but that my lessen the lifetime of the spring, I suppose.
BTW, it's virtually impossible to clip the coils with a wire cutter unless you have some specialized tools because the wire is so close to the rod and the spring coils are so close together and wound tight. I didn't want to kink the spring or alter it's set shape in any way, so I elected to use the smallest cutoff disc my dremel has, which is pretty small, maybe 1/32-1/16 inch thick. Spreading the spring out a little before cutting it and then cutting it at maybe a 60 degree angle worked extremely easily (not easy to do it all with just two hands, but easy to actually cut). The cutoff disc will slice it even before you think you are all the way through, which is great because you can stay clear of the rod. I pried the end piece of the cutoff section upwards, so I could grab it with needle nose pliers and then carefully pulled it off being careful not to entangle the good wire as I pulled.
I did try the WWB ammo, and it was less cooperative on the first round, though it did stove pipe rather than sit in the chamber, which is a step or two closer to full ejection. Perhaps it will improve as the spring ages. Meanwhile, I'll try to buy Federal ammo. They are both rated about the same for velocity and weight, but the Federal seems a little hotter.
In the end, I think I'm where I need to be, perfect being the enemy of good enough. Thanks all.
Slide being locked back for days didn't help a bit, so I ordered a new recoil assembly and decided to cut off some coils on the current one meanwhile. I initially took off 4 coils to be conservative, tested it, and found that was insufficient. I then took off an additional 3 coils, which made the Federal Champion bulk ammo workable on the first round, albeit rather pitiful ejection (almost hit my foot.) And that later improved when the gun was warmed up. Testing later when cold again, it still works but is a rather lame ejection, suggesting the spring may still be slightly too strong for the ammo. However, since the assembly seems to like some length in the spring in order to seat itself on the bolt, I didn't want to cut any more off lest it not hold on the to bolt as it is supposed to do.
So if anyone else tries this, I wouldn't take more than 7-8 coils off without some evaluation of the assembly in the gun. I suppose it's possible to stretch it out longer with fewer coils, but that my lessen the lifetime of the spring, I suppose.
BTW, it's virtually impossible to clip the coils with a wire cutter unless you have some specialized tools because the wire is so close to the rod and the spring coils are so close together and wound tight. I didn't want to kink the spring or alter it's set shape in any way, so I elected to use the smallest cutoff disc my dremel has, which is pretty small, maybe 1/32-1/16 inch thick. Spreading the spring out a little before cutting it and then cutting it at maybe a 60 degree angle worked extremely easily (not easy to do it all with just two hands, but easy to actually cut). The cutoff disc will slice it even before you think you are all the way through, which is great because you can stay clear of the rod. I pried the end piece of the cutoff section upwards, so I could grab it with needle nose pliers and then carefully pulled it off being careful not to entangle the good wire as I pulled.
I did try the WWB ammo, and it was less cooperative on the first round, though it did stove pipe rather than sit in the chamber, which is a step or two closer to full ejection. Perhaps it will improve as the spring ages. Meanwhile, I'll try to buy Federal ammo. They are both rated about the same for velocity and weight, but the Federal seems a little hotter.
In the end, I think I'm where I need to be, perfect being the enemy of good enough. Thanks all.
I don't know what the temps are like in your area, but if it is below 35°f pistols tend to slow down and malfunction at this level and below. Shoot some more rounds through it in warmer temps and see if that doesn't loosen up your ejection issues. I have taken a 1" dia. cotton shotgun mop cleaning attachment, added it to a cleaning rod section, and used some polish to smooth up the insides of the receiver tube with a hand drill. You can also smooth off any tooling marks off of the bolt using some polish too. On pistols with ejection issues this tends to smooth things up and allows for good ejection characteristics as long as the pistol's ejector is tight and the extractor claw are in good condition.
R,
Bullseye
R,
Bullseye
I've seen some lubes start dying at 40°. I've been using a really light coat of machine oil. Seems to work well in the winter.Bullseye wrote:I don't know what the temps are like in your area, but if it is below 35°f pistols tend to slow down and malfunction at this level and below. Shoot some more rounds through it in warmer temps and see if that doesn't loosen up your ejection issues. I have taken a 1" dia. cotton shotgun mop cleaning attachment, added it to a cleaning rod section, and used some polish to smooth up the insides of the receiver tube with a hand drill. You can also smooth off any tooling marks off of the bolt using some polish too. On pistols with ejection issues this tends to smooth things up and allows for good ejection characteristics as long as the pistol's ejector is tight and the extractor claw are in good condition.
R,
Bullseye